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Consent and care are new on the scene in the arts. We now have phrases like “consent-forward artist” and “care-forward creative spaces.” This has historically been an industry with a “just push through” mentality that can be quite harmful. Thankfully—there’s been a shift in the last few years. While there’s no undoing the harm that’s been done, we get to make lasting changes that will make the future a kinder one. I wanted to address this, and I knew exactly who I wanted to have this conversation with!
Leigh Barrett is a beloved Boston-based actor, singer, and director. My husband and I had the opportunity to play the lead couple in a show that Leigh directed (which you’ll hear us talk about)! Leigh is a force in this industry! She’s on a mission to make the theater a safer space for all artists. While there’s hurt that’s been caused, that’s certainly not how the story ends. How can we bring in more connection and conversation to a production—or even simply bring balance into our own lives? Leigh and I get into all this and more. Enjoy the show!
In this episode, we cover:
Leigh’s introduction to the theater
How Leigh being herself has shaped her career
Leigh’s advice about auditioning while being true to yourself
Being a mom and an actor
What led Leigh to avenues beyond acting
How Leigh handles imposter syndrome
Leigh shares examples of times when she pushed through for a show
How Leigh has taken what she’s experienced and learned and used that as a leader and director
How Leigh impacted Kira as an actor
What boundaries Leigh has for herself around work and taking on new projects
How do you think you can bring in more connection and opportunity for conversation in your world—whether it’s on or off stage? If you feel open to sharing, we’d love to hear your thoughts
More About Leigh Barrett
Leigh is a consent-forward artist who is passionate about making theatre a safer space for all artists. She started her career journey in opera and has found her way to musical theatre and directing. She is a proud four-time Elliot Norton Award winner and has made her career in New England area theaters.
Links & Mentioned Resources
Connect with Leigh:
Connect with Kira:
Thanks for joining me on this episode of Inclusive Stages! If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review on Apple or Spotify to help me reach even more theater makers, theater artists, and theater lovers who want to make our industry a better place for everyone.
Thanks to our music composer, Zachary McConnell, and our producer, Leah Bryant.
More about the Inclusive Stages Podcast
Welcome to 'Inclusive Stages' -- the go-to weekly podcast for theater makers, theater artists, and theater lovers who want to make our industry a better place for everyone. We'll chat with actors, directors, designers, scholars, and more about the current landscape of the theater scene and get their thoughts on how we can do better.
Host Kira Troilo will also give you a sneak peek into live EDI coaching sessions and offer actionable tips for creating more equitable, inclusive, and empathetic theater spaces that support and value the diversity of artists and audiences. Join the conversation, and let's collectively shape the future of human-first theater, one stage at a time.
This post may contain affiliate links, so I may earn a small commission when you make a purchase through links on my site at no additional cost to you.
The unedited podcast transcript for this episode of the Inclusive Stages podcast follows
Kira Troilo (00:02.325)
Hello Leigh. Oh, just always, always good to see you. My heart. Yes, yours too. How are you?
Leigh (00:04.174)
Hello, Kira.
Leigh (00:10.039)
Oh, I love seeing your face. I love it.
I'm good. I just got my hair done for the podcast. Just for y'all. Yep. It's a wig actually. No. Yeah, it's a wig.
Kira Troilo (00:20.925)
Yes, just for us, thank you. I have an, it's a wig in line with our theater, yes. Theater-ness, yes. Thank you so much for taking time. I just, you are one of my dearest friends and mentors and when I thought of doing a show where we talk about care forward creative spaces, of course you were just the top of my list, so.
Leigh (00:32.45)
That's right.
Kira Troilo (00:50.409)
Thank you for being here. Yes. Of course. I ask everyone when I get started, what is your theater origin story? Well, however you take that.
Leigh (00:52.068)
Thank you for that. Thanks for having me. Excited.
Leigh (01:04.806)
Okay, yeah, I didn't know that theater was a career. Does that make sense? I didn't know what an actor was, no idea, no idea. But I was always making up little worlds. I was always like writing my own variety shows in our living room, right? So.
Kira Troilo (01:14.043)
Mmm. Yep.
Kira Troilo (01:28.786)
Mm.
Leigh (01:31.122)
This was in the 1970s, so we had corded mics, so I always had my jump rope microphone, and I was always jumping up onto that, the footrest to give anybody that came in got some sort of original show that I was making up. And my younger sister was always a part of it. She was always like, you know, I was Carol Burnett, she was Vicki Lawrence, you know. So.
Kira Troilo (01:33.333)
Mm-hmm. Ahem.
Kira Troilo (01:47.157)
course.
Leigh (02:00.478)
And I was always making up little costumes and like doing little puppet shows. But I had no idea that this was like some sort of career. And my parents were just like, oh, you know, there goes Lee again doing some little weird little thing. And then I was always very, very quiet. I was always very quiet unless I was doing that. And then I was kind of like out and imagining things and
being some little weirdo. I loved Little House on the Prairie and I made my mother make me a little Laura Ingalls costume, complete with the sun bonnet, wore it to school. Of course I did. Not strange at all. Very, very, very strange. And my little sister luckily just went right along with me. And then I started to like sing in
Kira Troilo (02:32.602)
Mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (02:40.743)
Of course.
Kira Troilo (02:45.845)
No.
Leigh (02:57.202)
in church, I started to sing. I was a rainbow girl. I don't know if you know what that is, but my dad was big in the Masonic Lodge. So if you were a child of someone who was in the Masonic Lodge, it was a natural thing to be a rainbow girl. And that's where I started singing solos and memorizing lines because we had all this ritual that we needed to memorize. And I was like,
Kira Troilo (03:02.309)
Mmm.
Kira Troilo (03:13.758)
Mm.
Leigh (03:24.078)
kind of comes naturally to me, kind of easy to me. Still didn't know like this was a career. Didn't do theater as a kid. Didn't do, you know, I was not a theater kid. I auditioned for Zoom or I wanted to audition for Zoom, but they wouldn't allow me to. Yes, TV shows Zoom. Oh yeah, Zoom, yeah. The TV show Zoom. And I was so excited. I don't know where that came from. So random.
Kira Troilo (03:33.053)
Mm. Yeah.
Kira Troilo (03:42.409)
The TV show Zoom. Yes.
Kira Troilo (03:49.075)
Yes!
Leigh (03:54.098)
I was like in sixth grade maybe, but they said I lived too far away and I couldn't audition.
They regret that now. So fast forward, I sang in choruses in school, but I still didn't do theater. I did select choir, all that sort of stuff. And my older sisters, who was in, there wasn't a drama club, but she did shows and she was like, you should come audition. And I was like, I don't know. And I went to the lecture hall.
Kira Troilo (04:03.989)
Obviously. Ha.
Leigh (04:29.79)
and I sang my little song and they were like, you're, here you go, here's the lead. And I was like, okay, whatever this is. The same guy did these summer shows, they were like, like a variety show. And he took songs out of context. And I went, I was gonna go audition with my sister.
and it was in his basement. This sounds really sketchy, but he's a great guy. It was in his basement and everybody was older than me. I was too nervous. I wasn't gonna sing in front of anybody. And I called him the next day and I said, can I come, I wanna sing for you. He was like, okay. And I rode my bike over. I fell off my bike, hurt my knee. The chain fell off my bike. I had grease all over me. I got to his...
the basement, his piano, and I made him turn the piano around. I didn't want him to look at me while I sang. The only thing I could think of, I sang yesterday from the Beatles. I sang it really, really quiet, but he cast me. And so I always did these little things kind of randomly, and I would get a lead, but I never thought anything about it. It wasn't like,
Kira Troilo (05:31.433)
Hmm.
Leigh (05:50.502)
Oh yeah, now I'm a star. It's just like, okay, I'm doing this now. What is this, what do I have to do to do this? And then my best friend was auditioning for schools. And I was like, well, I don't really know what else I'll do. I'll do that. I'll do, I'll become a music teacher. So never been away from home. Off I go in a car with my best friend to Ohio to audition for schools.
Again, no idea what I'm doing. I also played the viola at the time, and he played the cello beautifully. And I went and auditioned for Baldwin Wallace College, which is now Baldwin Wallace University. And John had already played, and I played the viola. I played my little sonata. And they went, so if we don't accept you,
Kira Troilo (06:31.165)
Mm-hmm.
Leigh (06:45.022)
Will John still come here? And I was like.
Kira Troilo (06:47.578)
No.
Leigh (06:51.015)
I guess so? Sure?
Kira Troilo (06:52.473)
Okay, well, if that isn't the perfect introduction to our industry.
Leigh (06:56.642)
Right? And I was like, well, I guess I'll go to the voice department. And I went over there and I sang my little song. So I'm like, you're in, we love you. I was like, okay. So I did music ed for a hot second. I was terrified. I couldn't do it. Didn't know what I was doing. They put you right into the classroom right away. I was a very young, very naive 19-year-old. And I went to music performance because that's not scary.
Kira Troilo (07:09.382)
Mm-hmm. Oof.
Kira Troilo (07:23.756)
Mmm. No.
Leigh (07:25.37)
Not at all, no. So I did that and I was an opera major, but I never really felt like I fit in. I wanted to be, I literally said this I think in a bio, that I wanted to be the Carol Burnett of opera.
And I would take opera, you had to take opera workshop where you would work on scenes. And I wanted to tell a story with it. And this was in the 80s, so they were like, no, you don't move when you sing. You literally park and bark. And so I did, but I always sensed that there was more, there was something else that I could be doing or should be doing.
Kira Troilo (07:49.746)
Mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (07:55.653)
Right. No flexibility.
Kira Troilo (08:04.26)
Mm-hmm.
Leigh (08:06.11)
And then I did a review with a Broadway music director, and he was like, you could do this. I was like, okay, whatever this is, sure. And I said, how do I do it? And he said, go home, go back to Boston, get some stuff on your resume and see what happens. And that was it. I.
Kira Troilo (08:26.894)
Mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (08:33.821)
You've been doing it ever since.
Leigh (08:34.998)
I've been doing it ever since. I kind of never did the opera thing. I didn't want to wait until I was older to get a career going, because that was kind of a thing. I didn't want to just park and bark. I didn't want to do any more school. But also, I also didn't know what I was doing. I didn't know what I was doing. I still don't. Secret's out. I still don't. I'm making it up.
Kira Troilo (08:53.509)
Yeah.
Kira Troilo (09:02.133)
Uh, I mean, we all are making up it as we go, but yeah, you know, when I met you, I would never have guessed, you know? It's just, you were really barren, like, you know, just everywhere in Boston.
Leigh (09:04.998)
Um, we're all making it up.
Leigh (09:17.218)
Well, everybody thinks, you know, myself included, that everybody's just always, like that person has always just been there, right? You know, I have imposter syndrome, like I didn't study that, so how could I do it? Right? Yeah. But, and you and I have talked about this a lot. What my origin story shows me, and I'm just sort of in draft, putting this together is that...
Kira Troilo (09:25.51)
Right.
Kira Troilo (09:34.397)
Yep.
Kira Troilo (09:43.953)
Yes.
Leigh (09:47.658)
um, being myself, however I did it, was the right way to do it. Like I've always said there's no right way to do something, and however we get to wherever we are is non-linear. Like I've always felt that, I've always done that whenever something has gone my way or I booked a gig or I, um, I can almost point to every single time me just being myself.
Kira Troilo (09:54.846)
Mmm.
Kira Troilo (10:02.482)
Right.
Leigh (10:17.326)
tripping and falling and getting the chain stuck on my leg or ripping my dress before the audition, literally tripping over something to get to the music director. And those were the things that I booked, but the things that I was like, I have to be a certain way, which honestly is how I've been most of my career, being what someone else wants me to be.
Kira Troilo (10:21.374)
Yeah.
Kira Troilo (10:47.633)
Right, and that's being an act. Yeah, I mean, once you were an actor, you know, like once you were like, okay, I'm doing the thing, was that how you tended to feel? Like, while, you know, going in for roles, did you feel more like you were being yourself, or did you feel like kind of like a mounting pressure every time?
Leigh (10:49.599)
living up to someone else's expectations.
Leigh (10:56.33)
Yep. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Leigh (11:10.466)
mounting pressure every time. I think when I accepted the Elliot Norton Award for Sustained Excellence, I remember them saying, what picture do you want us to show up there? And I have this picture, you can see it on my website, of me as a little kid, just like this little weirdo. I'm like, that's who I am. That's who I see myself as, no matter what I'm doing.
Kira Troilo (11:12.189)
Hmm
Leigh (11:40.818)
I'm that little girl running around the backyard, making up stories, doing the thing. It was when I had to, or felt like I had to, no, you know what, I'm not gonna edit that. When I had to live up to someone else's expectation of who the myth of Lee Barrett is, that's when I started to like, crumble. And it wasn't until the pandemic that I realized that that's what I was living in.
Kira Troilo (11:51.86)
Mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (11:55.829)
Yep.
Kira Troilo (12:02.941)
Mmm.
Leigh (12:07.798)
Like I could really fully form that word and say, ah, I've been living under that for so long. Working and it's great, but yeah.
Kira Troilo (12:08.308)
Right.
Kira Troilo (12:15.301)
Yeah, yeah, and I think, mm-hmm. Yeah, and we, I wanna talk about when we met, of course, but we kind of met in that right before the pandemic, and I think had similar experiences. But I do, and I'm just now kind of thinking of this.
Leigh (12:30.901)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (12:36.381)
But when we met, both times, you played my mother. The first time I was pregnant and you played my mother. And I think, yeah, and I think so fondly about that, but just, you know, now that I'm doing this work, it's like, yeah, I was pregnant doing a show that I danced in and I didn't have any support. I just had really kind humans around me. Luckily, yeah, like a kind leader and a kind onstage mom and friends.
Leigh (12:43.616)
I know.
Leigh (12:59.682)
Thank God.
Mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (13:06.729)
But yeah, I just think I, you know, during that time, I was really excited and nervous to be playing your daughter, but then like I got to know you and we just bonded immediately over, you know, being moms and mom to be in this industry and what does that mean? So I just love to hear you talk a little bit about being a mom of littles and your time acting.
Leigh (13:27.822)
All right.
Leigh (13:34.61)
I say it all the time, like I look at you and I look at other friends who have young kids and I say all the time, how did I do this? How did I do this with young children? I toured with my oldest son, took his first steps in a Super 8 motel in East Peoria, Illinois, because my husband and I toured with an acapella group.
Kira Troilo (13:55.238)
Mm.
Kira Troilo (14:00.29)
I didn't know that.
Kira Troilo (14:04.947)
Mm-hmm.
Leigh (14:05.454)
for like 25 years and we were on the road with two nannies and that was insanity. But I didn't know any other life. I don't know how I would have done it without my parents' support system nearby to watch the kids because I don't know what it's like now but finding part-time child care? You're in a rehearsal. Oh, I only need you for two weeks from 10 to 6.
Kira Troilo (14:16.178)
Mm.
Kira Troilo (14:29.229)
Oh, forget it. Nope.
Kira Troilo (14:35.121)
Yeah, nope, that's the only way we do it is with parent's help. Yeah.
Leigh (14:38.494)
Nope, it's like impossible. It's impossible. My kids, and also feeling like you had to hide the fact that you were a parent. I don't know if you feel that now. I hope not. I hope that's changing. But I felt like I had to hide the fact that I was a parent. And kids are unpredictable. But you know, your kid is sick. I still have to go to rehearsal.
Kira Troilo (14:48.326)
100%.
Kira Troilo (14:57.188)
Mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (15:07.924)
right?
Leigh (15:09.726)
Like how? How? We would do this thing. My husband worked at WGBH at the time and when my kids were little we would call it the switcheroo. I think we talked about this, right? Like it was so important and I got this advice from our dear friend Sarah DeLima that it's
Kira Troilo (15:11.502)
Mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (15:24.425)
Hmm. We did.
Kira Troilo (15:36.661)
Mm.
Leigh (15:39.238)
my husband would meet us at like the pizza place across from the old new rep and we bring I would drive there with the kids we would have pizza they'd say goodbye to me I'd go they'd go back home with dad and that's how we lived and so much so it was so ingrained in the kids that the pediatrician at their well child visit would be like so what do you do you ride your bike blah and then we do the switcheroo and she's like what's that um but yeah it's
Kira Troilo (16:02.839)
Oh, what's that?
Leigh (16:09.834)
It's really challenging. My kids sat in. Luckily, they were really well-behaved kids. I think they just knew. The universe just said, we're going to get her these two because they'll handle it all so well. In the green room, doing their homework, watching a video, you know I've seen Levi entertaining themselves.
Kira Troilo (16:21.172)
Ah.
Kira Troilo (16:26.033)
Mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (16:29.933)
entertaining themselves. Oh yeah, my son Levi just he gets he only gets iPad time at work at mommy or daddy's work so you know it's kind of an exciting thing for him but yeah right you just make it work.
Leigh (16:40.141)
Yeah.
Leigh (16:46.078)
Yeah, I mean, I think that they are so, you know, they're old now. They're, I think I'd like to tell myself that it helped them be, you know, well-rounded and able to be in other situations and talk to a variety of people. But I do remember just being afraid all the time. All the time.
Kira Troilo (17:01.983)
Right.
Kira Troilo (17:05.897)
Yeah.
Kira Troilo (17:09.073)
Right? And how, right, how do you go about your job hiding, you know, hiding the most important part about yourself?
Leigh (17:17.466)
Yeah. Yep. I mean, I literally heard people say, you know, people in our business say, oh, well, she's married and she has kids now. We don't have to worry about her. Like, she's not competition. She's not what, like I was going to disappear.
Kira Troilo (17:23.839)
Mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (17:28.383)
Mm.
Kira Troilo (17:33.701)
Right. Like you have to choose having a child and a life and a husband and like being a competitive person in your field. Oh, it's just awful. Yeah. Was it that?
Leigh (17:44.542)
Yeah. Crazy. It's crazy. It's awful. Awful.
Kira Troilo (17:52.773)
I'm sure it was many things, but that led you to other avenues other than acting. Because I know that you have a passion for kids too, and now of course directing.
Leigh (17:54.443)
Yep.
Leigh (18:02.247)
Um...
I kind of fell into directing. I mean, I personally believe that every actor is a backseat director. And we all think that there's something we should know that we don't know. I don't know if that makes any sense, but like, oh, well, again, I didn't study that. So I must not be able to do it. But I...
Kira Troilo (18:11.774)
Uh-huh.
Leigh (18:30.43)
was asked by Peter Carey to direct something for Lyric First Stage when they had that summer program. I was like, what? But he took a chance on me, so I took a chance on myself. But the thing is too, I know that I'm smart. I know that I'm capable of figuring it out. I trust myself as an actor. I'm gonna approach things from that point of view. And.
in all things, and you know this because I've directed you a couple of times, I mean I won't have the vocabulary. I won't have the word for that thing. I remember being in the last five years and Dan, and me talking to Jared about something and saying, well I need to see what makes you say the words that you're about to sing. I need to understand the pre-beat that I know that. But Dan called it something and I was like, that has a name?
Like, I just did it. I just do it. Like, nobody told me that's what that's called. It just made sense to me. So he asked me to do that. I did that. We survived. And I learned from that. And then someone else asked me to do it. And maybe they're just asking me because either A, I'm Leigh Barrett and the name does something, or, ah, she's, you know, she'll do it. Well, let's just ask Leigh. She'll figure it out.
Kira Troilo (19:28.765)
course Dan. Yeah.
Leigh (19:58.774)
But I love that collaboration. I love being in the rehearsal room with adult actors or younger actors where we're like figuring the thing out. I think that I always felt, when it came to sort of acting, I always had an innate sense of how to tell a story and what it was, but the outside narrative I would get is that I didn't.
Kira Troilo (20:27.273)
Hmm.
Leigh (20:29.058)
that there was something missing. And whether that was somebody else's ego trying to come in to play, I don't know. But I felt, again, speaking in draft, I don't wanna say it's unseen, but I felt like I was a commodity in some way. I don't know if that's the right word, but.
Kira Troilo (20:41.397)
I'm going to go ahead and turn it off.
Kira Troilo (20:47.153)
Hmm
Leigh (20:51.63)
I didn't want, and hiding that I didn't know the name of that, or what's downstage, or what's upstage, or you know what I mean? Yes! And I didn't want to be another gatekeeper for that information for young kids who just want to play, who just want to do theater and tell stories. And I always said, does it have to be that way?
Kira Troilo (20:58.801)
Right, they're gonna figure out that I don't know, or yeah, mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (21:16.892)
Mm-hmm.
Leigh (21:21.314)
Does it have to, just because it's always been done that way, do I have to? And that's how I approach, certainly since the pandemic, everything now, does it have to be that way?
Kira Troilo (21:31.765)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely, and that's, you know, I always am saying now, like, if we are saying that's the way we've always done it, that's like a red alert. Because if we just keep going with the way we've always done it, then we're never gonna get better.
Leigh (21:43.861)
No.
Leigh (21:49.878)
I mean, even if we explore the way we've always done it and try and turn it around and try a different way, even if we do come back to the way we've always done it, at least we now intentionally understand why. Instead of just going, yep, that's what we do.
Kira Troilo (21:55.273)
Mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (22:07.533)
Exactly.
Sure, right. The show you are referencing, just for anyone who doesn't know, is the last five years, my husband Jared and I were fortunate enough to get cast in the lead roles together with Lee as director and Dan Rodriguez as music director, who I've bragged about before on this podcast. Yes, we love Dan. But, you know.
Leigh (22:32.788)
Yay, Dan!
Kira Troilo (22:38.025)
Full circle, Jared and I were parents of a three year old at the time, and we were like, how are we gonna do a show together? Right, and we're very fortunate with childcare, we have parents help. But you were open to saying, not even open, you were adamant about saying, I'm gonna only call.
you Kira when we need you and call Jared when we need you Jared and we made it work and that's where we practiced the switcheroo because we were able to be on deck. Yeah, yeah and that way we could both you know be engaging parents still but then do something that was super meaningful to us. I mean you know that's for the two of us to even be in a show together is very rare so but yeah I mean even
Leigh (23:07.864)
I'm passing it on!
Kira Troilo (23:26.349)
Even that, there is not a chance that we could have done another show like that without the parental consideration. Um, yeah, it's just...
Leigh (23:36.074)
I just think, you know, I write it down all the time to remind myself, putting the humanity back into our business, right? That how can we, in a business that asks us as artists to be so human and vulnerable, how can we not support the artists? And I'm talking across the board, technicians, artists, everybody involved in putting this piece together, how can we not be the most human?
Kira Troilo (23:43.805)
Mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (24:03.988)
Right.
Leigh (24:05.002)
And we have a business that is largely based in fear.
Leigh (24:13.014)
you know, from I hurt myself doing this thing, or I'm gonna push myself beyond my physical capacity right now to sing this thing, or I can't get there until 5.30 because I need to bring my kid and, you know, or whatever, whatever the obstacle challenge is, we're afraid to have the conversation. And that's when people like tell a white lie about
Kira Troilo (24:22.178)
Mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (24:39.175)
Yeah.
Leigh (24:43.682)
you know, there are conflicts because we're afraid and that becomes another thing. So that's what, yeah. Nope.
Kira Troilo (24:47.688)
Yeah.
Yep. Right, because we can't have conflicts. We can't, heaven forbid, we have to go to a wedding or a funeral or, you know, yeah. And that's something I keep saying now is like, we're not doing that anymore. We're not missing funerals anymore. We're not missing weddings anymore. Like, we can miss one day. We should be able to miss one day of work without worrying we're gonna just be replaced. Right?
Leigh (24:58.63)
Or a funeral. A funeral.
Leigh (25:07.116)
Mm-mm. Mm-hmm.
Leigh (25:13.546)
Yep, to say nothing of sickness. Ourselves or, you know, or our loved ones. And I don't know about you, but I feel us kind of starting to slip back into the old ways of lack of understudies and, you know, to say nothing of a stage manager who doesn't have an understudy.
Kira Troilo (25:22.226)
Yeah.
Kira Troilo (25:31.293)
Yep.
Kira Troilo (25:36.869)
Right? Never. What happens if the stage manager gets sick? Ugh. Yeah. I mean, do you feel comfortable or open to share any experiences where you felt like you pushed through and it made you feel like I'm not doing that anymore?
Leigh (25:39.586)
stage manager started to do this.
Leigh (25:43.882)
Life will stay on. You know.
Leigh (25:59.386)
Oh gosh, yes. I mean, it's hard to get, I'm trying to think of how I could get into detail without getting into detail. But I mean, there were times when I was doing a really big concert and I pushed myself too far and I had some vocal distress, but then I was doing another show at the same time and...
Kira Troilo (26:08.935)
Mm. Right.
Leigh (26:27.318)
There was already an understudy in place, and it was just a freaking nightmare. It was a nightmare I've never been and because that's the thing like as a singer We have this thing of like you can sing through anything and it be you know sing through it And it doesn't matter what you're gonna do to yourself to get there Because no understudies or the show must go on crap
Kira Troilo (26:32.998)
Mm.
Kira Troilo (26:51.197)
Mm-hmm.
Shamaskoan.
Leigh (26:57.122)
And I was very close to doing some damage that was undoable, unfixable. And luckily, my ENT just said, you just can't. And I listened to him and I listened to myself, and I just didn't. And there were some ramifications for that, you know, live here in the mix of who you become.
Kira Troilo (27:03.986)
Right.
Kira Troilo (27:16.434)
Yeah.
Kira Troilo (27:24.309)
Mm-hmm.
Leigh (27:28.02)
And I, you know me, I'm very protective, I'm very protective of the artists that I work with, vocally and physically and emotionally, which I think, I feel like we never talked about back in the day. Like, we didn't care. We didn't care, but also the people around us were like, that was part of the gig.
Kira Troilo (27:34.089)
Yeah.
Kira Troilo (27:43.814)
No.
Kira Troilo (27:48.337)
Yeah. And I like, I mean, that's like, I mean, I want to talk to you about everything always, but like the crux of what I want to talk to you about is like you, um, I, and I like, you know, specific without being specific, you are of a generation that was like, we just do it, you know? And I was too, to some extent, that's how I grew up. Just like, you just get through it, you just do it.
but you have taken what you've learned and changed, which is hard for people. I think there are a lot of actors out there who I've worked with, I'm not generalizing, who are like, well, if I did it, we should just do it. So how has that affected you as a leader, as a director with varying points of view there?
Leigh (28:24.13)
Mm-hmm.
Leigh (28:27.656)
Yeah.
Leigh (28:37.986)
I mean, it's interesting. Sister Act was the first time that I really brought the consent forward mindset into the room completely and fully. And that was a challenge in some ways. But once people jump on board, they jump on board and they see the light, as it were, I always describe myself like in therapy. Thank God for therapy, right? That when I've.
Kira Troilo (28:50.198)
Mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (29:04.753)
We love therapy.
Leigh (29:07.122)
don't feel extremes of emotion. Like when I don't feel like, or just to be descriptive, when everything feels like a still lake, like I can't even like point to a ripple, then I within myself emotionally, then I know I'm on the right path. If that makes any sense. Your listeners are going to be like, she is nuts. God bless.
Kira Troilo (29:26.683)
Mm-hmm. That does to me. Mm-hmm. But they're having a great conversation.
Yes.
Leigh (29:36.766)
But that's how it felt, bringing that into the room. I just was awake. Like nothing else mattered to me, except that I was bringing this language in. And people are now going to hopefully know that they have agency and carry it into another room. Yeah, sure. Oh, sure.
Kira Troilo (29:41.457)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (29:47.444)
Yeah.
Kira Troilo (29:56.797)
Right. And can you also just for people who don't know, because I do, what the consent forward work is, what just kind of briefly.
Leigh (30:05.47)
So for me, it is creating that safe space, building trust in community, that so often as you said, you know, oh, we just do it. As an actor specifically, you walk in and you need to kiss this person and you need to touch this person and we just do it.
even if we're uncomfortable, even if we have some sort of background that means we're going to get a little triggered by it or we just sort of stuff it down and do the thing and we emotionally suffer later for it. So you bring language into the room where we can say, where an actor can say, no.
and not feel like a bad person, not feel like a bad teammate. We grow up in a culture of yes and, and we don't take the moment to consider what saying yes and might mean. Because we're driven by a lack of time in our rehearsal processes. So we think we don't have time to ask the question.
Kira Troilo (30:58.627)
Mm.
Kira Troilo (31:13.766)
Right.
Leigh (31:23.858)
and the director in the power dynamic, the unlevel power dynamics, the director, whatever the director says goes. And it's BS. Because boundaries are kind. Boundaries allow us to be able to play freely. I know that I have to kiss Ben. I'm not just gonna come at him, we're gonna talk about it.
Kira Troilo (31:33.982)
Mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (31:37.918)
Yeah.
Leigh (31:52.534)
you know, how do you feel about this? Even if, you know, not even just bringing in an intimacy director or choreographer, which is amazing and yes, please. But just to have a simple conversation, to be able to say, oh, I hurt my shoulder, please don't put all your weight here on this arm. Okay, that's great. I don't wanna, I can't touch you there, but could I touch you over here?
Kira Troilo (31:54.483)
Mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (32:02.429)
Yes.
Kira Troilo (32:09.044)
Right.
Kira Troilo (32:16.274)
Right?
Leigh (32:21.334)
It is in essence asking permission, but it's a simple conversation that we don't take the time to have.
Kira Troilo (32:24.762)
Mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (32:31.996)
Mm-hmm.
Leigh (32:33.634)
You know, being able to say as a singer, you know what, I'm not feeling that B-flat right now, but I will tomorrow. Or maybe I'll feel it later tonight, but the freedom to be able to say and not be afraid to say whatever story you're gonna assign to the fact that Lee Barrett can't sing that B-flat right now is not true, but to be able to say, I can't do that right now. And that's okay.
Kira Troilo (32:41.609)
Mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (32:59.561)
Right.
Right?
Leigh (33:03.403)
and there's no like...
you know when you feel like as an artist you've been screaming into a void uh...
and someone says, I need you to do this, and finally you've had enough, and you do scream, you look like a crazy person, or you're like, oh, you're difficult to work with. Am I difficult because I don't want that person to touch me like that or kiss me that way, or without talking about it? No, I'm not difficult. But we have so much stuff attached to the word no.
Kira Troilo (33:34.86)
Mmm.
Kira Troilo (33:38.131)
No.
Kira Troilo (33:42.313)
Mm-hmm.
Leigh (33:44.106)
and knows a complete sentence.
Kira Troilo (33:46.225)
Right? But for a leader to say that, you know, because we all artists, you know, not just actors, I think, you know, designers as well, we just, we already have a sense of, I can't be difficult, I can't do the wrong thing, you know, like, whether or not the leader is kind and welcoming, it's like, if they don't say those words, then you're still carrying that around with you.
Leigh (33:54.434)
Yep. Yes.
Leigh (34:02.059)
Yep.
Leigh (34:06.093)
Yeah.
Leigh (34:11.562)
Right, so I mean, trust is repeatable, verifiable action. Right, and I have to say that all the time to myself as well, right? We have to do that as parents, right? And those, yes! And those, I wish I had these skills in the toolbox when I had small kids. But it really became a thing that my youngest is a type one diabetic. So that really became a thing.
Kira Troilo (34:16.873)
That's it.
Kira Troilo (34:23.389)
Mm-hmm. Oh, being a parent made me such a better leader.
Kira Troilo (34:37.627)
Mm-hmm.
Leigh (34:40.546)
I have to, it's his disease. He is the captain of the ship and I have to trust him, right? But it's, you know, trust but verify. But we can't just walk into a situation and say, and how many directors say, oh, I know this, trust me. Like, I don't actually know you. I don't know them. We're work?
Kira Troilo (34:47.996)
Hmm.
Leigh (35:08.142)
Colleagues, why do I have to trust you? That's a big heavy word.
Kira Troilo (35:14.931)
Yep.
Leigh (35:15.362)
Um, it's just, and it's a quicker conversation than we all think it is to get this language out on the table. And I think that those of us who've been in it for a long time, been in the business for a long time, hear all of that and they're like, oh, I do want some kumbaya circle that's going to take forever, blah, blah. But it doesn't have to.
Kira Troilo (35:26.068)
Mm-hmm.
That's right.
Leigh (35:44.022)
You know, that initial conversation might take a little bit longer.
But the pendulum, and I know you know this, the pendulum is gonna have to over correct a little bit before it can come to some place like here, because it is not moved for so long. It has been the, this is the way we do it.
Kira Troilo (35:57.232)
Mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (36:06.617)
Exactly. Right? Right, and I, it's exactly, every time that I go in and do, set a guidelines conversation and just try to build trust in half an hour, I mean, people who actually give it a chance are like, oh.
Wow, I never thought that we could establish a way of being and feeling in a room. We just dive into work, which is so crazy. But the one thing that comes up for me always, and I won't say her name, even though I love her dearly, is a woman I believe in her 70s or 80s who we worked with who for the first time in a circle with you and I just felt like...
Leigh (36:44.595)
Mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (36:50.777)
She's like, I've been, she spoke of harassment in the industry and just the fact that she had to just live with that. And just to see her kind of like crack in the most beautiful way of like, I can't believe that I can, that it's okay and that I can talk about it. I will never forget that because I think we can always.
Leigh (37:11.806)
Me neither. That was the most beautiful diff.
Kira Troilo (37:14.585)
It was truly and so much I see this as like a generational thing and it's not, you know, this is not like the young crowd coming in. Like, no, it is just an eye opening thing of like, we don't have to be treated poorly to do our jobs. Um, in fact, you know, we are, um, you know, I was looking at these statistics while I'm building out inclusive stages. And it's like, you know, the amount of people suffering from mental illness or trauma, triple that.
Leigh (37:31.06)
No.
Leigh (37:38.747)
Yeah.
Kira Troilo (37:44.439)
And that's what it is for artists. Triple. Like, no.
Leigh (37:48.494)
I'm not surprised. I wish I could say that I was surprised, but I'm not surprised. We expect that there's such an enormous toll. And I just think if people weren't afraid to make a mistake, and like I think most of the artists I know are perfectionists in some way, right? Maladaptive perfectionism. If we weren't afraid, that edit button...
Kira Troilo (37:55.365)
No, no.
Leigh (38:21.049)
because we're afraid of what someone else is going to think or that we don't know it or that we're going to make a mistake or we're going to sound funny or... But when I look at working with kids, I don't do that with them. Why do I do that with a grown-up? You know, an adult actor.
Kira Troilo (38:33.478)
Yeah.
Kira Troilo (38:38.481)
Right?
Kira Troilo (38:42.046)
No, and I'm just, yeah, I mean you were the one to get me out of my way as an actor with just, you know, being someone who can see me and see what's really going on and like, oh, you're editing yourself again. And I do, I do think about, you know, because now I'm really passionate about what I'm doing so I don't miss acting and I think for me...
Leigh (38:54.818)
Yeah.
Kira Troilo (39:04.709)
It's the agency for me of having my own business and not being told, oh no, you can't get the show if you can't commit to six nights a week. No, we won't let you out early for one hour to put your son to bed. I just, I can't do that anymore. But there is the before me where I was just feel like I was in my head all the time. How am I looking? How am I sounding? Am I okay? And just to have you say, don't edit, just, I see you editing, just let it out.
Leigh (39:08.957)
Yes.
Leigh (39:26.561)
Thank you.
Mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (39:34.905)
to be able to just be.
Leigh (39:35.054)
But I needed you to trust me to help you with that, right? And I think, you know, I think it was the environment we created, lucky to be working with you, lucky that you trusted me. It's really, really hard because I think that so many of us come from a place of, I don't trust that person because we haven't built it.
Kira Troilo (39:40.782)
Right, right.
Kira Troilo (40:00.145)
Exactly. No, you have to overcome. Everyone comes with their own backpack of experiences and traumas. And yeah, I deal with it all the time, trying to, like, yeah, why should someone just trust you? You have to build it. Exactly.
Leigh (40:05.738)
Yep.
Leigh (40:12.854)
Right? And then we come in defensive too. Yep. Yeah, I figured it out all on my own. I don't need you because I don't have any time to do the thing and you're going to make me look like an idiot.
Kira Troilo (40:21.445)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, no, you build that trust and then right, it's really in any relationship in theater, even between like the producers and people in charge, it's like when you have trust, you can just do such better, deeper work than when everyone's living in a state of fear.
Leigh (40:30.734)
Thank you.
Leigh (40:42.532)
Mm-hmm.
Leigh (40:46.698)
It's huge. It's huge. Ugh. Let's fix it. Let's fix it!
Kira Troilo (40:48.991)
Yeah.
Do you have, let's fix it, let's do it right now. Do you have rules for yourself now? Like before you take a project, you know, whether you decide you're gonna act in a show or you're gonna direct a show. Like are there, I'm thinking more about, you know, in the past and, you know, I think about me and my husband too, it's just like, oh, I got the role, I gotta do the role. Like now what is that for you?
Leigh (41:17.458)
I know, I know. Ah.
Leigh (41:25.778)
I think, I don't know, it goes back and forth sometimes for me. Like, it depends on where it is. Honestly, I have a real, still a hard time working in new places with lots of new people. I know I don't, I'm not comfortable with that because of
Kira Troilo (41:45.593)
Mm-hmm.
Leigh (41:52.734)
all of the vapor trail, I call it, behind me of experiences that have taught me not to trust a new experience, which is sad, and I'm working on that. So I must bring people that I trust, or I have already built a trust, a circle of trust with me into a process that's easier to do as a director, much more difficult to do as an actor. Like, I can't say, like, I'll take that project, but...
Kira Troilo (42:02.199)
Mmm, yeah.
Kira Troilo (42:09.777)
Yes.
Kira Troilo (42:19.111)
Mm-hmm.
Leigh (42:21.714)
I need this person directing it and that person, I mean, who am I, Patti LuPone?
Kira Troilo (42:27.159)
We all wish.
Leigh (42:29.414)
Um, uh, you know, I, so I haven't experienced that as an actor yet, though I do look at who's directing it, who's music directing it. And I, and I have an easier time, easier time speaking up for myself, advocating for myself in, in situations and asking the question. Because I think it's kind of like, I liken it to like, um, buying a, buying a used car.
Kira Troilo (42:56.318)
Hmm.
Leigh (42:56.79)
that I'll just walk away, which is also a privilege to be able to say. And I think during the pandemic, I discovered that. It's like, if it's gonna stay the same and I'm gonna stay afraid and mentally, emotionally unwell, then I'm just not gonna do it anymore. I just won't do it. Like I did a recording, I did a concert for the lyric. They did like a lyric at home thing and.
Kira Troilo (43:24.132)
Mm-hmm.
Leigh (43:25.138)
I did it with my son and my husband and a couple of friends, and we just filmed it here in my back room in my studio. And I had the most flipping, we're in the middle of a pandemic.
Kira Troilo (43:36.337)
I remember watching it and it just brought me so much joy.
Leigh (43:39.774)
I had the most flipping fun I can say that I ever have. Like I look around the house and I'm like, oh, that's where we filmed that. That's where we did that thing. And I had complete creative control and all we had to please with ourselves, which is difficult, right? Hardest person to please. But it was the most fun. And I was like, that's all I want for the rest of my life. If I could sit in my upstairs in my attic where we have a little recording studio and sing.
Kira Troilo (44:04.297)
Hmm.
Leigh (44:09.526)
That's what I want to do. So how can I translate that to outside world? And I'm not always successful with it, but I know now, and you were with me for some of these experiences, that I'm just not gonna put up with that anymore. That that is a no, full stop, not gonna happen. I don't have to be a you know what about it. I can have this boundary. I can...
Kira Troilo (44:32.105)
Right.
Kira Troilo (44:38.933)
Clear and kind boundaries.
Leigh (44:39.906)
I can be clear and kind, right? I can be, which is funny because I didn't understand boundaries. I thought boundaries was a mean thing because I was like, yes, I'll do that. Yes, I'll do that. I'll help you. I'll do that thing. I'm like, ooh, the toll on me was not good. So having a boundary, clear and kind boundaries, is so much better. But I don't have to be defensive.
Kira Troilo (44:47.977)
Mm-hmm.
Leigh (45:06.002)
I know what's mine to carry and what someone else's to carry.
Kira Troilo (45:09.747)
Mm-hmm.
Leigh (45:12.53)
Yeah, it's hard and it's work every day to keep that going in the right direction. I got off on a tangent. I don't know if I answered any question.
Kira Troilo (45:20.638)
Yeah.
Kira Troilo (45:25.602)
No, it was perfect. It leads us to the final question, which I think, you know, I, well, before we, sorry, so many things, before we get to the final question, I just love that in the, this is always us, sorry, you in your house with your kids and your husband, and then like what you told us about your theater origin story and just you being you. I just wanted to mirror that back because that was just too perfect.
Leigh (45:34.354)
Yes, I know. This is always us. This is the way we are.
Leigh (45:42.783)
Yeah.
Leigh (45:48.459)
Oh, I love that. Thank you for that. That is awesome. Oh my God. Wow. I never made that connection until you just did.
Kira Troilo (45:53.045)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Kira Troilo (46:00.277)
There you go. I love moments like that where it's like, yeah, right. That is still my truth.
Leigh (46:07.554)
Wow.
Well, I'm going to get hit by a bus tomorrow, so... Ha! Wow! That's, that's amazing. I'm so shook by that.
Kira Troilo (46:11.433)
So we'll let you, let you live. No, no, no. Ha ha.
Kira Troilo (46:17.589)
Um, yeah.
Leigh (46:24.17)
That's fun. That's really fun.
Kira Troilo (46:24.565)
It's all you.
What does inclusion look like to you going forward?
Leigh (46:38.186)
I mean, it can mean so, so many things, and so many lines get blurred in theater. I think that we really, really do as a business, as an entity, whatever, get stuck in how we've always done it. How did they do it on Broadway? How does that CD sound? What does the bootleg look like? What, you know, and we as consumers of this art form kind of want it to look like and sound like.
I am not going to be a hypocrite. I will do the same thing like, oh, it doesn't really sound that way. I always want to ask myself first, does it have to?
Kira Troilo (47:15.282)
Yeah.
Leigh (47:21.29)
does that person need to look or sound or be? Can we change the key? Can we, how do we make things adaptable for the people that are doing it now? Because it is a living, breathing thing. I would like to see more, I would like to see less fences and more gates around how we cast things, how we produce things. And that's just like.
the board. That's us being open to the new ideas and not leading with fear and yeah I think that's what inclusion feels like to me.
Kira Troilo (47:50.901)
Mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (48:01.617)
Yeah, open like a meadow.
Leigh (48:06.199)
Oh, you're so good. Yes. Open like a meadow, like a meadow.
Kira Troilo (48:07.317)
Yes, just yes. And quickly for those who don't know that, this is kind of intimacy work talk, but fences and gates are a way to signify where or if you're comfortable with contact on your body. And in the room that Lee and I talked about a lot, we came up with a word called meadow, which meant I'm open and I trust you all. And I think on the final day we were like, we're all meadows.
Leigh (48:23.444)
Mm-hmm.
Leigh (48:34.07)
We're all Meadows. Oh, that was such a beautiful thing. Yes. Be a Meadow.
Kira Troilo (48:39.794)
Yes. Thank you so much. Be a meadow. I could, you know, obviously talk to you all day. But thank you. Just always a treat. Yes, I mean, not really. We will. So if you please prepare for season two or three, because we'll be back. But you're the best. And thank you so much for just being open. Yay. Love you.
Leigh (48:45.693)
I know.
We'll be back for part two. Oh, yay. Oh, you're the best. I just adore you. I adore you. And I'm so proud of you and the work you're doing to change the narrative and the framework we all get to play in. And I'm just so grateful to be able to be a recipient of it.
flowing through me and to each other and to the world around us. So, grateful. Love you. Love you.
Kira Troilo (49:25.021)
Love you. Thank you.
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