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When I'm working with companies, giving a workshop, or starting a rehearsal and that is to define the work of DEI and EDI. I say EDI very intentionally and I'll explain that because words matter and there's a subtle difference. EDI work for the arts has some unique considerations—we’ll get into that as well.
This episode is focused largely on the 5 signs of bad DEI work we should all be aware of and my 5 commitments to you for the work we will do with this podcast. Bad DEI work doesn’t help any of us achieve the outcomes we so deeply desire. So… What is DEI and EDI work truly about? What do shame, guilt, and vulnerability have to do with this? Why does bad DEI work simply not work? And what can we do about it? I’ll be sharing all this and more in this episode! I’d love to hear your thoughts, so be sure to find me after the show!
In this episode, we cover:
What EDI work is all about
Five signs of bad DEI work to be aware of
Why not-so-great EDI or DEI work doesn’t work
My five commitments to you with the work I do in this podcast
I'd love to hear your thoughts on what you think some signs of bad work—and good work—are. Say hi on Instagram or the Inclusive Stages website!
Links & Mentioned Resources
Connect with Kira:
Thanks for joining me on this episode of Inclusive Stages! If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review on Apple or Spotify to help me reach even more theater makers, theater artists, and theater lovers who want to make our industry a better place for everyone.
Thanks to our music composer, Zachary McConnell, and our producer, Leah Bryant.
More about the Inclusive Stages Podcast
Welcome to 'Inclusive Stages' -- the go-to weekly podcast for theater makers, theater artists, and theater lovers who want to make our industry a better place for everyone. We'll chat with actors, directors, designers, scholars, and more about the current landscape of the theater scene and get their thoughts on how we can do better.
Host Kira Troilo will also give you a sneak peek into live EDI coaching sessions and offer actionable tips for creating more equitable, inclusive, and empathetic theater spaces that support and value the diversity of artists and audiences. Join the conversation, and let's collectively shape the future of human-first theater, one stage at a time.
This post may contain affiliate links, so I may earn a small commission when you make a purchase through links on my site at no additional cost to you.
The unedited podcast transcript for this episode of the Inclusive Stages podcast follows
Kira Troilo (00:04.194)
Hello theater friends, welcome or welcome back to the Inclusive Stages podcast. I'm so excited to have you here today as always. And it's just me today and I am excited to talk about a topic that's been really weighing on me. And I think you'll understand what I mean if you've seen anything about EDI or DEI in the news.
Kira Troilo (00:34.97)
Now for this episode, I thought it was really important to do what I do whenever I'm working with companies or giving a workshop or starting a rehearsal, which is to first define the work of EDI. And I try to do that very intentionally. And I'll explain more about that because I know the title of this episode is about DEI work and I do think words matter and there's a subtle difference. And again, I will explain. But I think that the most common issue with this work is that people think they know what they're talking about, but we're not very specific about the definition. So a lot of times it's just confusing. People don't really understand what we mean by EDI or DEI work. So first, I wanna explain what I mean, and then I wanna share with you
you know, what's been on my mind as I watch the news and see, you know, these headlines about DEI getting canceled or, you know, programs not getting funded anymore or DEI work getting politicized. It really is weighing heavily on me, obviously, as someone who does this work. And it also just makes me feel like people are attacking, oh, hold on one second.
Kira Troilo (02:31.454)
It really just makes me feel like people are reacting to this work based on what they think it is. So I have come up with five reasons why I think... So I have come up with five... signs... of bad DEI work. And I think it's really important in trying to do this work, we have to also... define what it's not and define...
what's in the way of it being successful and making it work. Because if it's coming off as something that's offensive and reverse racist or all these things I've heard in the news, then we're not really getting it. So that's what else I'd like to start just defining the work I do. And then I'll share those five signs with you. And then I wanna hear from you all what you think, obviously. So starting with EDI, I will always use EDI.
equity, diversity, and inclusion. Here is what I've come up with in terms of the clearest solution, the clearest definition that I can. So equity, like I say in all my workshops, I'm gonna start beginning, beginning. I know you probably know this, but just in case you don't, equity is different from equality. So equality says we all get the same things no matter who we are, we're just gonna get everything the same.
Right? Equity recognizes that we all come from different places, from different backgrounds, from different identities. It also exists. It also...
Kira Troilo (04:11.05)
It also says that there's a system that is in place for certain people, right? So everyone has a different starting line based on where they come from and based on how and for what people that system was created. So the easiest way to say that is equity is, sorry, one second.
Kira Troilo (04:41.038)
So the easiest way to say it is equity is recognizing that we all have different needs in order for the opportunity to succeed at the same level. I'll say that one more time. We all, all of us have different needs in order for the opportunity, again, we're talking about the opportunity to succeed at the same level, right? That's equity, okay? So when I think of equity, I think of systems.
and how systems serve the people within them. Okay, so, you know, the easiest, one of the easiest things to picture is if someone uses a wheelchair and the entrance to a theater only has stairs, they don't have the opportunities to succeed because they can't literally get in, right? So creating a better system would include building a ramp so that person has the opportunity to access the arts. They can...
they have the opportunity to literally get in the door. Now, that's a physical, visual way to think of it, but think of that in terms of culture, in terms of identity, gender, race, ability, neurodiversity. There's all sorts of different considerations, right? Okay, diversity. Diversity is what makes us different. Diversity is intersectional.
So, I think oftentimes people think diversity and they think race. A lot of, you know, that's generalization, but I know a lot of people who see DEI and they think black people, they think race, they think people of color. And that's one of the reasons why I use EDI, because I think a lot of people see DEI and they think race and they think critical race theory and they think race, right? Yes, and what about ability? What about...
gender identity, what about age, marriage, pregnancy, menopause, sociopolitical factors. There's so many things that make us different and so many things that make us different from the people we share categories with. I always say, you know, like I am a black woman, I am a biracial woman, I'm also cisgender, able-bodied, mom.
Kira Troilo (07:05.634)
There's a lot of things that make me me, okay? So diversity just means the presence of all of these differences in the room. So if you say, we have a lot of diversity in the room, that doesn't mean you have a lot of black people in the room or a lot of people of color in the room, which is what I think people think. And they say, oh, we have a diverse cast. No, diversity is the presence of difference in all of us, right?
And we can also be specific about what we say. We can say racial diversity. We can say gender diversity. You know, there's different categories of diversity depending on how specific you're getting, okay? So equity, right? We're going back to equity. Creating that system that supports the diversity in the room or the diversity we want in the room. When everyone feels like they have what they need to
thrive, belong, access, matter, that's inclusion, right? We feel inclusion when we can be our full selves and succeed at work. So to me, it's a simple mathematical equation, okay? E, equity, plus D, diversity, equals inclusion. When we set up systems that support the diversity that we have or want,
we achieve or work toward inclusion, a place where people from everywhere, every background, every identity, every culture, can feel that they really belong. They have a sense of belonging, they feel that they matter, they're important, they have what they need in order to do their job and thrive and thrive in their wellbeing, right? So that's it for me. E plus D equals I, EDI, that's how I define the work.
Okay.
Kira Troilo (09:10.942)
Now in theater, it is especially easy to fall into the trap of performative. Our work is literally performance, right? So it's so easy to get stuck on those things that we can see. Um, and that is the, I'm going to use quotes here, diversity work, because, you know, we can show racial diversity on stage, um, you know, in commercial and film, we can show racial diversity on the screen and it looks like the work.
and it's only part of it, right? We have no idea what the systems behind that are, if equity is being taken into account at all and if there's a sense of inclusion on the project. So anyway, with that, let's go into the DEI work now that's getting hammered in the news a little bit. I wanna talk about those five reasons why.
I think this work gets a bad name or reputation. And also, as I got into this work, it really mattered to me to make sure that I do this work in a way that connects with people, that engages people, and it makes it exciting, right? I don't want people to see me walk in and be like, oh no, it's EDI. So I'm gonna talk about those.
Those five things that I think are signs of work not being done great. Okay, number one, probably not a surprise because we just talked about clarity. Side number one, it's not clear. Okay? I've gone into workshops before where I've asked, okay, just generally, you know, getting started, can anyone tell me what equity means? And people will literally just look at me and blink their eyes and it's like cartoon with crickets and the blinking eyes sound. I don't know if you can hear that like I do.
The work is literally everywhere, especially post 2020, and people still have a really hard time defining it. It feels nebulous. People have perceived notions of what they think they're going into. And we can't agree on what it is. You know, I've had people tell me, you know, they've gone into workshops and, you know, let me, let me back up.
Kira Troilo (11:47.278)
People have preconceived notions about what they think they're going into when they're going into a workshop or interacting with EDI or DEI work. And then there's theater, okay. So I'm gonna do something I don't like to do, which is take us back to 2020. Oh, I know, but in the theater industry, we had our own kind of reckoning when this We See You White American Theater released their open letter.
I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. If you don't, you can just Google We See You White American Theater. You'll see what I'm talking about. But people of color specifically spoke out and said, hey, we're done being used by this system. And it was a very brave call.
to action, right? And what happened was, since we were all stuck at home, theaters rushed to do work that was visible immediately. And they were being pressured to do so, to be fair. Everyone was scrambling.
You know, we're all out of work, social media is a dumpster fire, people are calling for results that they can see. So this is how we end up with the, oh, let's do some, let's do an anti-racism statement. Let's do a diversity and inclusion statement. Let's put a black square on Instagram.
You know, and that kind of seemed to be the work. You know, we're all scrambling to kind of figure out what the work is. And it ended up the work that you could show online at that time was what many people thought the work was, right? Then we get back to work, you know, 2021 comes, you know, theaters are struggling to get back to work. It's hard to get audiences back after slash during COVID.
Kira Troilo (13:40.847)
So the DEI work was relegated to...
you know, those statements and maybe a committee who meets sometimes and let's make sure we're casting in a colorful or color conscious way. But that's it because there's a lack of clarity on what the work meant, what is the work? So that's one sign, just a lack of clarity in what the work is, both as an industry and specific companies knowing like why the work should matter to them.
Number two, and this is a big one, the work is based in shame and fear. There is so much shame and fear around this work. And I'm gonna nerd out for a little bit about Brene Brown. If you're a fan, she's a big time researcher that focuses on shame and vulnerability and all those big emotions. And I've been really digging into the psychology behind
how people think and what makes people change. And I got really into this, you know, as 2020 and 2021 were going and I was watching social media and just thinking like, how are we going to connect to each other across such huge feelings and big difference? OK, so digging into Brene Brown's work, I will link to some of my favorite of her books in the show notes.
everyone please do yourself a favor and check out Bernays work. But one quote she says is, vulnerability is the birthplace of innovation, creativity, and change. Right? So vulnerability is the birthplace of innovation, creativity, and change. Empathy is also... Oh, let's go back. Sorry.
Kira Troilo (15:43.218)
So vulnerability is not something that is really accessible to human beings when we're living in a place of shame or fear. Those aren't really times when we're feeling those feelings. We're not really feeling open to.
to feeling, to expressing our feelings at all, right? So how can we change? How can we innovate? How can we be creative when we're afraid? We're afraid of being shamed or afraid of being canceled, right? Talking about a lot of the things that we have to talk about in theater and performance is really hard. We have to talk about race. We have to talk about class. We have to talk about abuse, trauma. I mean, you name it, right? And unlearning.
the way we've always done things. You know, me as like a millennial at this at this point, you know, I remember theater back then and just doing things and having no support system and I'm also a part of the change to make theater better now. But it's hard to unlearn things we thought we knew and it is especially hard when we're being shamed for being wrong or
you know, we're afraid to get anything wrong. And I'll talk more about this in a future episode, but you know, just shame and fear are not working. I always tell the story of an actor that I know, just I'll share while I'm on this topic, of, you know, I'm sure we're all familiar now of sharing your pronouns as you introduce yourself. So this actor years ago was telling me that
She was in a room and for the first time heard, can we hear your name and pronouns before we get started? And she was the first one to go. She didn't know what it meant to share her pronouns. She was in her 60s, I believe at the time. And so she made a joke out of just being nervous. And then the entire show, she felt like she'd been targeted as like that woman who doesn't get it.
Kira Troilo (17:54.186)
and she just felt such a sense of shame because she just didn't know and everyone assumed that she should know. So I just tell that story because I think if.
there had been someone available as, you can come to me with any questions you have, or if there have been any resources or guides or any grace, she may have been able to ask the question on the side or even ask of the group if she felt like she could be vulnerable enough to say she didn't know what that meant. So that's just one example. And of course there's fear, and again I'll talk more about this on another episode, but fear of getting canceled, fear of getting it wrong,
common fears. And fear leads to the bare minimum. Fear leads to let me do as little as I can to make sure that people think I'm doing the work and I don't get looked at too closely and I don't get cancelled. So there we go. Shame and fear. Not great. Number three. Another sign of bad DEI work. It doesn't leave room for nuance.
Diversity and inclusion work, equity, diversity and inclusion work is always changing. It is, that's why I love it so much too, because there's always something to learn every day. Things are changing. We are growing. We are always evolving. And so this work is always changing. So I always say, if someone thinks, if someone says they are an expert in this field,
I would run in the other direction because you can't really be an expert in something that continues to change. That probably sounds dramatic, but I am a theater person. I don't think it's possible to be an expert. I think we need to always leave room for nuance. As actors, we always say, you know, when we're improv-ing, we have a phrase that we say, yes, and. So if someone says something, you don't shut it down and say, no, it's this way. You say, yes, I accept that, and.
Kira Troilo (20:04.83)
I'm going to make another offer. So I love the yes and in this work, right? When there's no room for nuance, we are doing bad work. When we can't hold many things to be true at the same time, then we're shutting ourselves off to inclusion. So we need nuance, right? Number four, I will say that it looks like, oops.
Oh sorry, I'm going back a little bit.
Kira Troilo (20:58.57)
Okay, number four, it's divisive. Okay, the work of inclusion is supposed to be to connect us, bring us together and bring us to a place where we can all exist with our differences and thrive. But the work at its worst can pull people apart and actually traumatize people further. And I'll give you an example. I...
have heard of this practice or this exercise being done in some DEI programs, and it always just gives me the shivers. I don't know if you've experienced this, but they have people stand in a line, and then the facilitator will read a, kind of like a never have I ever, of like, I've never been pulled over by the police, or I've never been racially targeted at a store.
or you know XYZ and as you've never done something or never had something done to you, you take a step forward. So what happens is the people with the most I'm saying quote-unquote privilege end up way ahead whereas people with marginalized identities and backgrounds end up further behind or they don't take a step. So you know you might have someone who is black queer trans person
you know, behind the line where a cis white man is way ahead. Now, this makes everyone feel bad, right? If you're the person like way ahead of the line and looking back, like maybe you're learning something about privilege, but you are literally perpetuating it as you're standing in the room. And then you have these marginalized identities who also feel awful because they're being highlighted for not moving forward.
So you've created a divisive environment where maybe there's been something learned by the people with the privilege, but you're harming the others in the process. So it's divisive, right? It's not, it's either or thinking, and that's not really helpful. Another thing that's, let me start that over.
Kira Troilo (23:29.93)
Another culprit in the divisive conversation here is of course social media. Social media is where we go to yell and to avoid, I think. We don't change each other's minds by posting on social media, so it really drives forward this either or thinking, right?
It's tough. It's tough and it kind of forces us to say, well, if you're this, then you're this, or if you're not this, then you're this. So we're dividing rather than having conversations across difference and learning to learn from each other. Right? There's not no yes anding happening there. Okay, and number five, this is the last and probably the most important one.
sign of bad work, it doesn't connect and it's a drag, right? Okay, if people think that DEI work is boring, preachy, a waste of time, not relevant, then it doesn't matter how much work people do.
it's never gonna work because it's not connecting. And I think a lot of the not so great work that I have heard about and seen out there gives people the message that they're bad or they should feel constantly guilty or that they're not motivated enough, that they're not good enough, they're not good people. And that is doing the opposite of what this work should do.
which is invigorate people and excite people and like who doesn't wanna create a culture where we all feel great? I don't understand. Good work connects us. It says, hey, you know, in theater specifically, we have a shared mission, we have shared values, we have a shared goal, and that lights us up. That should light us up to do that work, right? If we are not lit up by the work we're doing, then we do it half-heartedly.
Kira Troilo (25:32.514)
We can't fully commit because it doesn't feel, like we don't feel it, right? So I'm sure everyone can relate to this kind of story. I worked a job that was totally fine. I liked it for a long time, but I didn't love it. I went to my desk, I did the bare minimum, and I didn't work a second longer than 5 p.m. or whenever I was done, right? That's because I was there to make money and go home. It didn't light me up, I wasn't excited about it.
I didn't invest any extra time. Right, okay, now I do work that lights me up. So I have a clear purpose, I have a clear why, and now I have the opposite problem. It's hard to get off my computer, it's hard to stop working. Just ask my family. It's very hard for me not to go above and beyond because the work connects with me, it lights me up, and it makes me want to learn more all the time. Now I understand not everyone is gonna be as jazz as I am about doing this kind of work for a living.
But if the work of DEI or EDI feels like a distraction from real work or not fun or, ugh, why do we have to do this again? Then it's not going to stick. It won't connect and change is not going to happen. So if this work is not fun, I'm really, I'm going to use the word fun. If it's not fun, if it's not energizing, if it's not motivating, it's not working. Okay. I promise you it won't work.
So those are my five. I wanna hear what you think about that, but I'm going to make the following five commitments for this podcast right at the start here, just based on those, okay? Here are my commitments for you. Number one, I will always make things as clear as I possibly can. I know this work can be confusing and nebulous, but I'm going to try my best to make it just so simple to understand in your corner of the world.
Number two, shame is not welcome in this space and we are going to work as hard as we can to combat fear. I can't promise that people won't be afraid of talking on this podcast or listening or engaging in the topics, but it is a shame-free zone. Okay, we're here to learn together and grow together. And as long as we're all curious and connected to that mission, then we can do really great things, okay? Number three, we are all about the nuance here.
Kira Troilo (27:58.85)
Bring on the nuance. I am a woman of nuance. As if you listened to the episode where I kind of introduced myself with my best friend Rachel, you'll hear all about nuance, but that is a big part of the work that I do and who I am and what I believe. So here we're all about the nuance. Number four, we are going to work to build bridges and bring people together. It's really hard, but we have to try. We have to try. If we're gonna keep...
going down these divisive paths and we're never gonna be able to connect, we're never gonna achieve inclusion, it's just not gonna happen. So we build bridges here and number five, we are going to have fun. I really, I want to promise you that, I guess I can't really promise that you'll have fun, but I'm gonna have fun and I'm gonna promote fun here because I think that this work can and should be fun. I think it's for everyone and I think we should all.
be able to find a way to connect to making environments better for everyone. So that's what I've got for you today. I hope that was helpful. I'd love to hear your thoughts on what you think some signs of bad work are, what are some signs of good work, what's exciting to you. I want to hear all of it, so please reach out, Instagram, on the Inclusive Stages website. I really would love to hear from you.
So thank you so much for enjoying, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you have an amazing rest of the day and I hope you find something in the day that lights you up. See you next time.
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