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Being yourself as an actor can feel like quite the conundrum. How much of you should you bring to a role? What auditions should you even be going to? All of these mental gymnastics routines you put yourself through can eventually lead you to something like burnout. It can be absolutely exhausting trying to figure out which boxes to put yourself in and what to do with your talents in this industry.
Jennifer Apple is here to help us dissect these and many other concerns for actors! As a coach, Jennifer sees patterns with what her clients are moving through. And as an actor—she’s experienced them. She shares how actors can take back their agency, why it’s important to bring yourself to the character, and how the theater industry invites us to dance with the unknown. Jennifer also talks about the importance of naming the elephant in the room, but not talking about the elephant. Please enjoy this conversation with this incredible change-maker!
Please note that this episode mentions October 7th, which may be sensitive for some listeners.
In this episode, we cover:
When Jennifer realized acting could be a career path
The ways we can have a sustainable career as artists
How Jennifer manages her acting career plus all her other skills and passions
How burnout has impacted Jennifer personally
The ways in which actors can take back their agency
Patterns Jennifer has noticed with her BFA and MFA coaching clients
What the audition cycle does to our self-worth as actors
The importance of actors exploring and reckoning with themselves as human beings
How Jennifer would de-role while playing Dina
What the energy and experience of the cast of The Band’s Visit was like
How Jennifer navigated the events of October 7th both professionally and personally
The benefits of naming the elephant in the room, especially after a big world event
Jennifer’s thoughts on awards
What we can be doing better as an industry
Hopefully, you can see that the most critical step in the process of change is simply being vulnerable enough to begin a conversation. I believe if we opened the door and started a dialogue, we would all be surprised to realize we’re more alike than different. I would love it if you shared your thoughts with me—say hi on Instagram!
More About Jennifer Apple
Jennifer Apple is a multi-hyphenated artist who has toured the country and performed at multiple regional theaters and all around NYC. She has an Elliott Norton Award for Outstanding Lead Performance, developed and workshopped numerous new plays and musicals, and lent her voice to multiple original cast recordings. Jennifer has appeared on TV in "Law & Order: SVU" and "New Amsterdam" and holds an MFA in Acting from the American Conservatory Theater. She is an acting coach, as well as the host of the Empowered Artist Collective Podcast.
Links & Mentioned Resources
Connect with Jennifer:
Connect with Kira:
Thanks for joining me on this episode of Inclusive Stages! If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review on Apple or Spotify to help me reach even more theater makers, theater artists, and theater lovers who want to make our industry a better place for everyone.
Thanks to our music composer, Zachary McConnell, and our producer, Leah Bryant.
More about the Inclusive Stages Podcast
Welcome to 'Inclusive Stages' -- the go-to weekly podcast for theater makers, theater artists, and theater lovers who want to make our industry a better place for everyone. We'll chat with actors, directors, designers, scholars, and more about the current landscape of the theater scene and get their thoughts on how we can do better.
Host Kira Troilo will also give you a sneak peek into live EDI coaching sessions and offer actionable tips for creating more equitable, inclusive, and empathetic theater spaces that support and value the diversity of artists and audiences. Join the conversation, and let's collectively shape the future of human-first theater, one stage at a time.
This post may contain affiliate links, so I may earn a small commission when you make a purchase through links on my site at no additional cost to you.
The unedited podcast transcript for this episode of the Inclusive Stages podcast follows:
Kira Troilo (00:02.471)
Hi Jennifer. How are you?
Jennifer Apple (00:03.481)
Hello. live. I'm here.
Kira Troilo (00:08.323)
alive. Yes, this is good. Yeah, I'm so excited to see you every time I get to see you, but even more excited because you are my first intro into podcasts in general. Yes, you had me on yours.
Jennifer Apple (00:11.608)
I'm excited to be here.
Jennifer Apple (00:15.797)
Yeah, same.
Jennifer Apple (00:23.519)
I love it. love it. That makes me so happy that, yeah, the Empowered Artists Collective was your inaugural podcast experience. feel very lucky to have. And now look, now look where you are. So you're just like, I do one podcast hosting, like guesting, and now I just want to host my own. And then you start a whole series. Cool.
Kira Troilo (00:35.702)
Kira Troilo (00:43.013)
You know, right, we just go with what feels right. But I was like, I knew I had to have you. Yes, it was just such a, I loved it. I loved being on your podcast and I love listening to it. So we'll make sure to put that in the links below the show as well. Yeah, but yay. So I have known you for about a year now. So I actually don't know the answer to this question, but I'd love to know what your theater origin story is.
Jennifer Apple (00:45.48)
Exactly. Thank you.
Jennifer Apple (00:53.612)
Thank you.
Yay.
Jennifer Apple (01:11.051)
man, my theater origin story as in like what brought me to performing, what brought me into the end, like where are we going?
Kira Troilo (01:20.475)
Yeah, you can take it however you like, but it can be what brought you to wanting to perform or even what brought you to being interested in theater in the first place.
Jennifer Apple (01:28.999)
Yeah.
Okay, so as a youngin, I started singing basically when I could speak. have like little, this is probably like any Gen Zers are like, what is this? But like cassette tapes of me singing and I would always make these little shows in my living room that I'd force everybody to come and watch. And my parents tried to put me in piano lessons young and I hated it. I refused to practice, but I
Kira Troilo (01:34.478)
Hahaha
Kira Troilo (01:45.45)
yeah.
Jennifer Apple (02:00.793)
took a voice lesson and it stuck and I wanted to do that all the time. So my first voice lesson was at seven years old. And then I grew up going to Jewish day school my whole life and like modern Orthodox Jewish day school. And so singing wasn't really a part of those spaces necessarily as maybe it might be in other like public schools. And I was like always like the little singer though that would do, you know, events.
Kira Troilo (02:15.578)
Mm.
Jennifer Apple (02:30.807)
or graduations, even like very young. And then eventually, you know, my parents put me in community theater and then eventually was theater camp. And then I was that kid in high school that, you know, I did sports and theater and eventually had to like pick and theater one out. And then I was directing things and in choir and chamber choir and just it kind of was a natural progression. wasn't really anything that hit me over the face. And then in undergrad, I went to a liberal
Kira Troilo (02:56.921)
Hmm
Jennifer Apple (03:00.552)
art school. I majored in theater with a double concentration in acting and directing and then I double minored in creative writing and philosophy so I went really liberal arts.
Yeah, and I think maybe there was like a moment in theater camp where there were some famous people's kids and you their parents were like real actors and I was like, wait, this is a career that maybe it was in the back of my brain. And so once college happened and I was studying the thing and moved back to New York, which is home for me, I guess it was like, I guess you just auditioned. So I did and then I was mostly doing regional theater for like three
Kira Troilo (03:32.6)
Hmm.
Jennifer Apple (03:41.885)
years before.
A mentor of mine suggested that I apply to grad school and I did and I got into a couple places. I chose to then go and get my MFA. Went out to San Francisco for three years, came back to New York. At that time, I kind of really pivoted to coaching and teaching a lot as well, which I still do now with my own studio and also in universities and programs that hire me to teach and came back to New York.
Kira Troilo (03:58.894)
Wow.
Kira Troilo (04:07.341)
Mm -hmm.
Yes.
Jennifer Apple (04:13.329)
It was kind of juggling both.
four months after getting back to New York, booked the original tour of the band's visit. I went on tour with that until COVID shut it down, then really pivoted hard to coaching and teaching. Then that pandemic summer, I also founded the Empowered Artist Collective that was an incubator program for a year and a half and then pivoted that to the podcast. But since then, yeah, I guess now it's like the balancing of like the multi -hyphenate moment of coaching slash teaching, acting, podcast hosting.
Kira Troilo (04:33.028)
Mmm.
Jennifer Apple (04:46.266)
I guess the begrudging writer in me, which I do have the degree from undergrad, but really starting to own more of my writing. I have two solo shows that I created during grad school. I have a pilot I've written. I have a play that I'm in the middle of writing. I have another pilot that's in my brain. There's other things that are happening and just trying to own that label as well. But that's a really long -winded, nonspecific version of my theater origin story.
Kira Troilo (04:55.009)
Hmm.
Kira Troilo (05:09.528)
It's amazing, no, and you're not busy at all. There's really not much going on in your life yet. No, that's amazing, it's a straight road. And I'm curious, when you went to San Francisco, were you focused on theater or was that more in the writing or the coaching?
Jennifer Apple (05:12.749)
Sure. Yeah.
Jennifer Apple (05:19.247)
Yeah.
Jennifer Apple (05:27.704)
Yeah, so I think part of the thing that had happened to me for those three years prior, like between undergrad and grad school, was I was getting very pigeonholed into musical theater, which tracks, and I was very grateful for those opportunities and I worked consistently. And I really wanted to be doing more TV and film. I really wanted to be doing more straight plays. I really wanted to be doing more Shakespeare. I wanted to just like speak a little bit and not have people hire me exclusively for my voice. And so the program itself was an MFA in acting.
Kira Troilo (05:56.652)
Mmm.
Jennifer Apple (05:57.748)
So really revolved around that as the craft, I will say I went to the American Conservatory Theater out in San Francisco or ACT and
There were a lot of facets to the program. part of it was like we had the citizen artistry, which is a certificate that I have, which was like teaching in the community. So there was a teaching element. And then we do this thing called Skyfest, which was between the first semester and like second semester. Essentially, we would come back and for like two weeks it was like nose to the grind, devising, creating, curating shows like Skies the Limits, Skyfest. It could be shows that had already been written and then doing them in a different way.
Kira Troilo (06:16.713)
Mmm.
Kira Troilo (06:23.842)
Mm
Jennifer Apple (06:36.522)
or creating something out of nothing and devising it or writing something. And so there really was an aspect to the program that was also about facilitating these other paths that I think arguably all of us wear in some capacity and some of us more than others. And so the producing part of it, the writing part of it, the collaborating part, the, you know, really being crafty when you only have $20 as a budget, like, you know, so that was a component of the program as well. But that wasn't the reason I went. I went specifically to really
Kira Troilo (07:03.691)
Yeah.
Jennifer Apple (07:07.43)
focus exclusively on acting.
Kira Troilo (07:10.133)
Wow, yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, one of the things I think when I think of you is hats, just like many hats. Yeah, my gosh. Super cute, adorable and very talented. Yes, but yeah, mean, you, I mean, I think a lot of people did this and I did this too in COVID times. It's like, what can I do right now with the resources I have? So.
Jennifer Apple (07:16.21)
boy. Hopefully they're fun hats. Hopefully they're cute and aesthetically adorable. Yeah.
Thank you.
Kira Troilo (07:37.002)
Did I've heard you also talk about this on your podcast with your guests? what are the ways that we can sustain as artists and keep doing this? Right? Cause you mentioned not knowing if this was a career or that this was a career. So yeah, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that and just the realization of where you're doing this as a career and how are you going to utilize your other skills?
Jennifer Apple (07:56.433)
Yeah. Yeah, I don't think I figured it out. think a lot of what this industry demands of us is the...
unknown. And I wouldn't say getting comfy with the unknown, but I think understanding that these periods and pockets of quiet or frustration are going to happen.
Most likely because a lot of the power it feels comes externally as opposed to internally. And so I think for me, a lot of the hats have come from trying to feel more agency, frankly, in what I can do to A, keep myself happy and satisfied and growing and also B, not feeling exclusively reliant on the industry to give me things.
Kira Troilo (08:34.151)
Mmm.
Jennifer Apple (08:55.861)
even though I am deserving of them as is everybody else. know, so I think there's I haven't figured it out. I definitely go through, you know, the roller coaster of why did I choose this and why am I choosing this and do I still want to keep choosing this? And is this healthy to keep choosing this? And what is wrong with you for continuing, you know, and like the self -flagellation that kind of potentially comes and trying to remember that I will come out of it eventually. It's hard.
Kira Troilo (08:59.444)
Yes!
Jennifer Apple (09:26.663)
But I think, you for me, it really comes down to trying to remember that I have things that matter to me and I have a community that I have cultivated that maybe share similar values and ethos that all of us
really want and therefore like leaning into the community part of it, leaning into other people who no more have access to different things who I'm already connected to and then trusting my own abilities. All of those things I think allow me to then continue coming back to it and making more opportunity. I don't know. I'm not really answering your question because I don't have an answer. I think that's part of it. Like I...
Kira Troilo (10:10.75)
Yeah. That's, I don't have an answer yet.
Jennifer Apple (10:15.847)
Yeah, it's burnout's really real. and I don't think people are afraid of saying it so explicitly, because somehow it feels like naming the fact that you're tired means that you somehow lose your craft or something or that it's like tied up to your worth or if you take a break for a second to focus on your mental health and wellness or you want to watch a binge a TV show that somehow it's taken away from all that you're capable of.
Kira Troilo (10:18.282)
Yes.
Kira Troilo (10:25.509)
Hmm.
Jennifer Apple (10:44.858)
I am a victim of that within my own self. And I guess to name the fact that the more we give ourselves the nourishment, however that might be.
Kira Troilo (10:44.864)
Hmm?
Jennifer Apple (10:56.796)
the more we are able to then, when we return to the thing, be fuller in it and continuing to remind myself that just because I've taken a step away or just because I pivoted or just because I've taken a breath doesn't mean that I'm no longer a performer and no longer talented and no longer have a career. It just means that I'm focusing on different parts of myself so that when I come back, I'm not feeling tired all the time or I'm not feeling unsustained all the time.
Kira Troilo (11:13.49)
No.
Kira Troilo (11:23.967)
That's right. And it's not, it's actually the opposite. It's that you have to do that in order to sustain all the hats you're wearing. And I do, I think burnout is so real. And especially you said something that just connected so hard with me is like that agency. I recently retired from acting for a while too. And it's just, you have no agency really as an actor. Yes.
Jennifer Apple (11:27.995)
Yeah.
Correct.
Jennifer Apple (11:48.59)
Yeah, unless you're really creating your own work or unless you have a community or lovely family lineage, lucky you, that allows you, affords you the opportunity to be seen for things maybe more frequently or whatever it is. But yeah.
Kira Troilo (11:57.799)
Mm -hmm. Yep.
Kira Troilo (12:05.332)
Right, but that's right, but how much quicker does burnout happen when you don't have agency? So I think we can take agency in taking care of ourselves and when are those times we need to rest and when are those times we actually need to focus on something else because it's making me feel more empowered and fulfilled. Mm -hmm.
Jennifer Apple (12:10.064)
for sure.
Jennifer Apple (12:22.5)
For sure. For sure.
I feel like I talk about this a lot with clients of mine, especially I focus a lot with MFA and BFA individuals. I do this thing called monologue sourcing where I find monologues specifically for people. And I don't do it by type. I don't believe in any of that. think that's something that's so, I hate it. I do it like who you are as a human being, all the things that you love and find pieces that speak to those things and the way in which you communicate and all of that. And then usually those clients will take those pieces and use them for their process and or coach with
Kira Troilo (12:35.092)
Mmm.
Kira Troilo (12:44.456)
Mm -hmm.
Kira Troilo (12:49.865)
Yeah.
Jennifer Apple (12:55.443)
with me with the process. And oftentimes, you know, when people have hired me for say their entire BFA or MFA audition cycle, arguably they come in in the beginning being like, cool, it's like the technical stuff. I just need the monologues and I the pieces and I just want to perfect them. And what ultimately always happens, I'd say 95 % of the time, I'm not a mathematician, but 95 % of the time, the process ends up solely really being them venting and sharing in a space where they start, like they get to say all the things and the insecurity.
Kira Troilo (13:15.454)
Yeah.
Jennifer Apple (13:25.368)
that are popping up for them as they're going through this. Because ultimately that process, for example, has nothing to do with booking a role. It's you. It's like, will this program accept who you are as a human being into their space? And trying to combat this idea of self -worth and or, you know, like, who am I? Identity stuff as you come through this process of really trying to work on your material, so much comes up. And I find myself in these spaces so often telling my clients, hey,
Kira Troilo (13:37.778)
Hmm.
Jennifer Apple (13:55.513)
Your assignment this week is you're actually not allowed to touch your pieces. You're not. Do not touch your pieces this week. But I need to, but if I don't, but if I don't, but I'm gonna forget. Do not. My request, my desire for you is to be curious about what it would be to like go on a walk. Or to be curious about like, you know, playing more with your dog. Like my cute little one right here sleeping behind me. Like I cannot handle him in this little thing right there. Thank you, Walter. You know, just, or.
Kira Troilo (14:00.082)
Mmm, love that. Yep.
Kira Troilo (14:13.513)
You
Kira Troilo (14:18.353)
Yes, my gosh. Yeah, we're gonna have to save that on our Instagram Reel.
Jennifer Apple (14:23.373)
It truly, but being curious about something besides just the pieces and trusting yourself enough to know that just because you stepped away for a week doesn't mean that somehow your skill set went away. It actually means that you become a fuller person that then when you revisit it is that you rediscover things about yourself and the pieces as you're working. And I think, you know, that kind of advice to step away.
is really hard because we feel that if we're not doing the thing then somehow
who are we and it takes away from all the work that we've done and our own identities. But really ultimately it is my belief at this moment in my seasons of my life that, you know, really reminding ourselves of our human selves besides just the work when the work can feel so toxic and intense. That kind of reminder really allows us to more fully then step back into the work as fuller.
Kira Troilo (14:56.766)
me.
Kira Troilo (15:00.35)
Mm
Kira Troilo (15:06.92)
You
Jennifer Apple (15:25.156)
complex humans.
Kira Troilo (15:27.217)
Yeah, absolutely. that usually, again, this is a general, but people are afraid of exploring themselves. And I think especially as actors, it's like, no, I'm going to I'm getting into character. I'm working on this character. I'm working on this piece. Right. But then to your point, working through these monologues, they really do have to like reckon with themselves.
Jennifer Apple (15:35.159)
Yeah.
Jennifer Apple (15:38.969)
Yeah.
Jennifer Apple (15:46.594)
Yeah.
And arguably for me as an artist, at least my philosophy on it, or the artists and the actors and performers that resonate with me are the ones that I do see them through it. Like the reason Meryl Streep is like the icon of all icons is because it is Meryl, like the essence of Meryl is through every single character she's ever done ever. And through, like, and with her little grain of Merylness through all the stuff,
Kira Troilo (16:00.477)
Mm
Jennifer Apple (16:17.165)
then you see her transforming. Like, that's the cool part where like Meryl in this circumstance, in this lifestyle, in this world, this is how she finds herself and character through it versus I erase her completely. Like for me, it actually isn't about not seeing you. I want to just see you transform into whatever this is. And I believe that that's cooler to me than pretending that you don't exist for me.
Kira Troilo (16:19.452)
Mmm.
Kira Troilo (16:36.636)
Mm.
Kira Troilo (16:45.593)
Yeah, I love that. Where did that moment come from for you?
Jennifer Apple (16:54.932)
within my own craft or seeing it.
Kira Troilo (16:56.899)
within your own craft.
Jennifer Apple (16:58.664)
gosh. think a lot of it, I don't think I've ever been good at, well, let me say this differently. I am a terrible liar. I am. And I think actually what's so offensive so often is when people, when they hear, they don't know you, when they hear you're an actor, they're like, so how do I know you're ever lying? And I'm like, I'm so viscerally insulted by that question because for me, acting is a form of truth telling. It is the ultimate form of truth telling. is, that is it. Like if I, you can tell when somebody is on a camera and like,
Kira Troilo (17:14.917)
Yeah.
Jennifer Apple (17:28.458)
they are putting something on rather than actually saying the word like that little difference palpable. And so for me, I feel like I'm a little detective when I watch actors on a stage being like lies, lies, lies, you know, maybe that's not fair. I don't mean to judge, but like, you know, it's yeah, it's a BS. Yeah, it's a BS barometer and.
Kira Troilo (17:32.533)
yeah.
Mm
Kira Troilo (17:43.77)
No, but you have that sense. Yeah, I think I do too. Yep.
Jennifer Apple (17:48.931)
And for me, think ultimately understanding that what is that BS barometer telling me? It's actually telling me about the truth telling of this human being who I'm seeing in the corporal flesh in front of me in body, mind and spirit saying words that somebody else wrote. If I sense that this human being is not actually fully in integrity with themselves and this character in this world, even if they're uncomfortable, but they're navigating that discomfort as this character. Like if I don't see that,
Kira Troilo (18:04.389)
Mm -hmm.
Jennifer Apple (18:18.824)
then I am not invested because now I'm just watching you put something on rather than you telling the story. So I don't know if I had like a distinctive moment necessarily that was like an aha moment as much as it's me being very, very cognizant of the kind of art that interests me. And I think, I mean, you can truth tell, like I saw O'Mary on Broadway.
Kira Troilo (18:21.252)
Mm -hmm.
Kira Troilo (18:39.203)
Mm.
Jennifer Apple (18:48.708)
And it was one of the best things I've ever seen in my entire life. I've never laughed so hard out loud. It is a bummer that it is not staying open longer just literally because of logistics. I thought it was fucking brilliant and so dumb and it was so self -aware. And Cole is a mastermind in terms of like the writing and also the performing.
Kira Troilo (18:58.989)
Yeah. Yes.
Jennifer Apple (19:13.845)
And again, like the self -awareness and people can maybe go and see that show, which is campy beyond anything and be like, well, that's not like epitome of acting. But in my mind, you have this actor who was up there giving truth to these circumstances in the most stylized, campy way that feels truthful to the world. And you can't tell me that just because it's not drama that I don't believe you.
Kira Troilo (19:15.906)
Mm -hmm.
Kira Troilo (19:29.902)
Mm
Kira Troilo (19:35.501)
Right.
Jennifer Apple (19:40.487)
Again, it's this visceral understanding that like no matter the circumstance, our job as an actor specifically is to embody the world of the play and the show. And through the circumstances and your listening skills, you're able to do that more effectively or not. And yeah, I think it's this is a long tangent, all which is to say I don't have a I don't have a I don't have an OG moment about it. It's just.
Kira Troilo (19:50.732)
Mm -hmm.
Kira Troilo (19:59.534)
Yes.
Kira Troilo (20:04.278)
No, it's amazing. It's the content. No, OG. But what I'm getting from you is that it's who you are. I think it is just who you are. And also it's putting, I love that you said it's the world. So it's not just inhabiting a character, but there's the context of what world are you in? It doesn't have to be drama to feel truthful and real.
Jennifer Apple (20:12.181)
I think so.
Jennifer Apple (20:18.304)
No.
Jennifer Apple (20:22.476)
Correct. Yeah, again, like I...
1000 % like I go back to these monologues often where people are like, okay I want comedic and dramatic and I'm like I actually don't operate like that because you can put a circumstance on a quote -unquote comedic monologue that all of a sudden makes these words so serious and Really really intense and I can do the same with something that's really dramatic. I can give you a circumstance That's going to throw this entire thing on its head and you'll learn a lot And so to go off and also comedy is like there There's a reason you have the two little actor head like those little heads, you know when you have comedy and drama whatever those there's an
Kira Troilo (20:30.87)
Mmm.
Kira Troilo (20:36.684)
Mm -hmm.
Kira Troilo (20:45.909)
Yes.
Kira Troilo (20:54.581)
we're bad theater people because I don't know the name for them either. But right, the sad and the happy and they're next to each other.
Jennifer Apple (20:54.715)
name for them. god. Yep, terrible. Yep, but you know what I'm talking about. Exactly. Yeah, there's a reason. Like comedy, if you are actually doing comedy the way comedy is supposed to be done with large quotations, it is the most serious thing you will ever do. Like you cannot, you as a comedian cannot know that you are being funny in the way that, then you take away the ability for the audience to actually receive the comedy. Like you have to, the circumstances are so, so grave.
Kira Troilo (21:19.608)
That's right.
Kira Troilo (21:23.65)
Mm -hmm.
Jennifer Apple (21:24.401)
Obviously, you're self -aware enough to know, like, okay, this is a comedy and that's why I'm in this, but like, you need to... That's... It's circumstantial. So, you know, I say all of which to say it is our responsibility as artists to remember that it doesn't happen in a vacuum.
Kira Troilo (21:31.374)
That's right.
Jennifer Apple (21:41.645)
And your job is to bring truth to the world that you are in through the character that you are playing by being in response to all of the information that is coming to you and the other human beings who you share space with. It doesn't happen in a vacuum. And if you are trying to be interesting and you're trying to be, you know, to put something on, I'm going to feel that is not in alignment with everything else that's happening.
Kira Troilo (22:10.186)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, a hundred percent. I, I mean, I've only seen you in one role, Dina, in the band's visit. And I just, you sing this song, Omar Sharif, and every time you sing it, just feel, it just feels so real to me. Yeah, it's your presence in it. It's captivating. think across the board, people saw this when you did this role. And another thing I noticed about what you did is like you...
Jennifer Apple (22:12.741)
Yeah.
Jennifer Apple (22:17.425)
Yeah.
Kira Troilo (22:39.19)
You know, that moment is for that character in the band's visit, if you're not familiar. It's the Tony performance was that song. But you're also listening so intently to everyone else on stage and you're so present in everyone else's moments. So yeah, mean, truly. So I want to hear you talk just about Dina and just playing Dina, but I just to note from my end, I see all the things you're talking about in what you did in that role.
Jennifer Apple (22:46.105)
Yeah.
Jennifer Apple (22:51.044)
Hmm.
Jennifer Apple (23:00.345)
Yeah.
Jennifer Apple (23:04.783)
Well, that's good to know that I'm not just like.
Kira Troilo (23:07.147)
No, it's, yeah, think anyone who's seen you would feel like, yeah, that sounds right from her.
Jennifer Apple (23:11.245)
Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, mean, Dina was talk about like such a.
blessing for the time in my own personal life. It really was kind of a perfect storm of my ability to, as a human being, find healing through art and art then healing me in this symbiotic relationship. As I said, I was in the original Band's Visit tour. I played a different role. I played Anna. She's one of the roller skaters. And...
Kira Troilo (23:45.185)
Did you cover Dina?
Jennifer Apple (23:46.571)
through things that are not in my control, it didn't happen. Which is fine. Things happen for a reason. And I think because of those because of that discovery I had for myself in that I there was a lot that I learned about myself. And when this production came around and Dina was on the docket for it, it was like, no, I'm this is it. And all the stars aligned and the timing was.
personally really impactful for me with October 7th and family and Israel and to be then playing an Israeli woman on a stage during this time really felt like a different kind of responsibility that I didn't anticipate it would prior in the same way. So it really was just a lot and that kind of was an interesting artistic moment for myself
Kira Troilo (24:44.918)
Mm
Kira Troilo (25:03.136)
Mm -hmm.
Jennifer Apple (25:10.777)
and that I had never really had a part that was so of me and me so of it in the way that really trying to like separate, it was a little harder for me because it was so personal. And I'm not.
Kira Troilo (25:25.653)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Jennifer Apple (25:31.116)
that actor who like is like the method kind where like I because there was no seeking out to try to do that. It just kind of the circumstances, unfortunately or fortunately, organically kind of fell into that same into that. And it was complicated sometimes to be able to really leave work at the door and then come back to myself when like the world was still what the world was. And my family was still navigating, navigating what my family was still navigating. So
Kira Troilo (25:56.13)
Yeah.
Jennifer Apple (26:01.822)
But ultimately it was really just a really cathartic, beautiful, special, impactful, collaborative experience that I.
I'm still so endlessly grateful for and Dina really held me through a really hard time and I think I held Dina if Dina were a real person. I think it was a really supportive space and community and the cast and crew and everybody was just wonderful and I feel very lucky that it was received the way that it was and made the impact that it seemed to have made and it's rare that I think we as artists get to have this kind of full symbiotic
Kira Troilo (26:22.801)
just...
Jennifer Apple (26:41.554)
experience and I do not take that lightly at all.
Kira Troilo (26:45.472)
Yeah, yeah and especially at that time. mean I'll never forget, know, rehearsal started what, like October 9th.
That was wild. And I want to talk about the environment of the room because that's so crucial. But also something that I do a lot of in my work is de -rolling with actors. So how do you get out of the skin of the character that you're playing while recognizing, right, that sometimes, oftentimes, I've experienced this too, where you also want to hold on to that character. They're giving you some kind of strength.
Jennifer Apple (27:02.264)
Mm
Jennifer Apple (27:15.99)
For sure. For sure.
Kira Troilo (27:18.393)
And you can't carry all of that as human being, Jennifer.
Jennifer Apple (27:21.643)
Yeah.
Correct. There was a lot of taking magnesium powder, calm powder at night in my tea and a lot of emergency packets in the morning and going on longer walks with my dog Walter and you know, really trying to do me as a human to like come back into my own self a little bit of just caring a little bit more for myself and watching a lot of, I got into a cult TV phase of just watching a lot of cult TV shows.
Kira Troilo (27:30.111)
Yes.
Kira Troilo (27:39.936)
Yep.
Jennifer Apple (27:53.432)
a lot of strange TV consumption and you know, yeah.
Kira Troilo (27:58.323)
Love it. Yep. Coping. Yeah, and you answered the question in my brain, right? Which is like, how do you do that? Yeah, so that's amazing. I you have to find those things that remind you that you're Jennifer, not Tina. Yeah. I wonder if you can talk about, I mean, for those who don't know, the band's visit is a...
Jennifer Apple (28:09.696)
For sure, for sure.
Kira Troilo (28:18.497)
beautiful story, like a very simple kind of slice of life story, I'd say, where these Egyptian band orchestra members end up in Israel. So we had a variety of people in that show from different backgrounds. yeah, I just wonder, thinking about the time period that you were doing that show, how do you feel like you were able to come together and form?
Jennifer Apple (28:21.584)
Yeah, for sure.
Jennifer Apple (28:41.444)
my goodness, was, it was, could have gone very, very badly and it was the complete opposite. I think everyone really met each other where they were. They respected each other and their backgrounds. They listened and they also stepped away when they needed to take care of themselves. There was a true energy of support and care and love. And arguably that's also why the show was so impactful. You could feel that.
Kira Troilo (28:47.307)
Yeah.
Kira Troilo (28:52.609)
Mm -hmm.
Kira Troilo (29:02.625)
Yeah.
Jennifer Apple (29:11.139)
would imagine from an audience of like these are people who actually are like respecting one another and there was yeah and there was love there was like deep care and love and I do not take that
Kira Troilo (29:16.042)
You could feel it.
Jennifer Apple (29:23.736)
lightly at all because it could have been a completely different situation. But frankly, there was not a single person who did not hold space as far as I know, at least, who did not hold space when it came to the cast and each of us really being able to show up how we needed to. Felt very lucky for that.
Kira Troilo (29:41.983)
Mm
Yeah, and that's huge and it's not by accident and I think it's important, know, we do theater so we do shows that are...
Jennifer Apple (29:47.022)
Yeah.
Kira Troilo (29:53.1)
hard and speak to our times and then sometimes you pick a show and don't know that there's going to be a huge life event or world event that's gonna just dismantle everything or disrupt everything. So no, I always struggle with trying to tell theaters, like investing in the culture and the vibe and the love in the room. Yeah, it really is make or break because I do think the band's visit was an example of something. It could have just crumbled if the
Jennifer Apple (30:12.089)
Yeah.
very big.
Kira Troilo (30:23.054)
environment and feel safe.
Jennifer Apple (30:24.533)
A thousand percent. I'd like to also think that that, you know, in some ways comes from like top down cast in some ways. Like, you know, I showed up to the first day of rehearsal and like, you know, I just I guess this is like trigger warning. My cousin was one of the people murdered at Nova Festival in Israel. And on my first day, I had known that he was missing since before getting to, you know, the Huntington. And I emailed Paul being like, hey, before I even get there, I just want to let you know that this is the circumstance.
Kira Troilo (30:36.929)
Mm
Jennifer Apple (30:54.486)
cousin is missing currently and I have family in Israel and we're navigating this in real time and then during our dinner break for band's visit on October 9th, our first day of rehearsal, I learned the news of his passing and I showed up sobbing. Like, yeah.
Kira Troilo (30:59.785)
Yeah.
Kira Troilo (31:10.814)
Mm
I walked by you, that's how I met you. I had seen, yeah. Yeah.
Jennifer Apple (31:16.014)
Yeah, I was a mess, you know, and so and I didn't and part of me, think an earlier version of myself would have tried to pretend that that wasn't happening. And I think.
Again going back to what we talking about earlier like I'm unable to lie now ever I don't think I ever was but like it's certainly now it costs more for me to Withhold what I'm feeling Not to put it on anybody else. It's not about that. But just to like, know when somebody asks How are you? I'm not just gonna say fine anymore. I learned that in the pandemic that was it cost me to not really show up I'm not gonna fully divulge but if somebody says how are you and I'm not feeling great I'll be like times are a little bit hard, but I'm navigating through it. Like I'm gonna be a little
Kira Troilo (31:48.499)
Yeah.
Jennifer Apple (31:59.675)
more transparent and so on that rehearsal like and I show up clearly having been very emotional beforehand but I'm present I'm there I'm navigating with everyone like I'm not saying that like her tears set the tone but I do think that there was something to be said about like
this person who's leading this company is clearly going through a lot and she trusts us enough to be here and hold that. And also she will tell us if and when she needs something and therefore I can also do the same. And I think...
you know, part of when I was navigating that, it was like, well, is this irresponsible or selfish of you to go in with these things? And it's like, I actually don't know any other way at this point if I'm supposed to be playing this person during this time right now. I don't know how else to show up. And I don't know if it was right or wrong, but I do know that, I literally started the whole rehearsal process as a sobbing human.
Kira Troilo (32:48.062)
Right? Right, you brought -
Kira Troilo (32:57.512)
Yeah, well, and I, right, I never would want for you to have entered as a sobbing human, but it was, the story of, you know, I was a consultant on the show and, you know, I wanted to go in and I felt that it was important to address what was going on in the world. And that's scary for people. Some, you know, people don't want to talk politics or anything or out of fear. But I, yeah.
Jennifer Apple (33:14.007)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jennifer Apple (33:19.586)
Yeah.
And we didn't, I will say, like, there's a difference between naming the elephant and talking about the elephant. We didn't talk about it. Frankly, politics rarely, like, I don't remember really a conversation except for, one -on -ones with people, that we didn't do that as a cast, but we all were aware that all of us were engaging with the elephant on a daily basis from different perspectives.
Kira Troilo (33:29.245)
That, you've got it, nail on the head. No.
Kira Troilo (33:45.915)
exactly that and that was my point was we need to name the elephant, right? So yeah, you coming in to rehearsal that day, how can we just go and read the script?
Jennifer Apple (33:55.351)
Right.
Kira Troilo (33:56.038)
No, we have to talk, let's talk. Let's talk as humans. Let's get to know each other. know, I, you know, that's where I handed out like fidget toys for everyone to fidget with. And yeah, just to get the anxiety, you know, name it. Like there is an anxiety. There is deep pain and grief in this room right now. It's just so powerful. no, mean, as much as I wish that you didn't go through that.
Jennifer Apple (34:04.403)
Yeah, they were so cute.
Kira Troilo (34:19.655)
you opened the door to have everyone bring themselves to the room and going back to what you were saying, you know, just you, you are you, you're bringing yourself to this character. Yeah, so.
Jennifer Apple (34:28.745)
Thank you. I try. Not perfect in any way, shape, or form. Yeah.
Kira Troilo (34:32.953)
No, no, neither am I, but I think that people walk into any first rehearsal, whether it's October 7th or whether it's just a Tuesday, people bring all sorts of stuff with them and they don't know what to share. They don't know if it's safe enough to share. think, yeah, that was just a really beautiful moment where I remember the director turning to me and just kind of giving me the green light, like, yeah, let's talk for an hour and just get on the same page here.
Jennifer Apple (34:57.171)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kira Troilo (35:03.177)
yeah, how is the aftermath after playing? I wonder just like when you did the show, huge success, you won an award for it. How does it feel kind of like leaving a show like that when you have to say goodbye to a character who feels so close? Yeah, of course.
Jennifer Apple (35:09.887)
Mm
Jennifer Apple (35:19.405)
It's hard, it's hard. I'd be lying if I didn't say it's hard, especially a part that you really love, especially a show that you feel is like growing and changing and morphing and as the world is changing and morphing. And the show was really important and impactful for so many people, specifically in Boston, to have catharsis or listen a bit. I think when I think about art doing...
the work, know, like art not just being frivolous, like art actually being impactful. I really do know that that show was doing that. It was healing and it was it was really important for.
humans. And so to leave something like that on more of like a macro scale is really difficult when you know that it's making a difference. To leave it a more personal level is hard when you you're then unemployed. So so that's you know that's a very real thing and also just you know the roller coaster of that particular show again was so intense and then to be rewarded not that I have a lot of very very mixed feelings about awards and I think it's you know
Kira Troilo (36:05.201)
Hmm.
Kira Troilo (36:12.458)
That's real.
Kira Troilo (36:26.548)
Same.
Jennifer Apple (36:29.121)
my initial response to
getting nominated for the Elliot Norton was actually like anger, which is I had to unpack that in therapy a lot was, why am I angry about this nomination? And it was like, my initial was like, it's taken, sounds so selfish and egotistical, but like, it's taken you 12 years to like notice how good I am, like, fuck you. And then it was like, okay, actually pause for second, like, shut the, where's this guy, exactly, this has nothing to do with anybody else, this has something to do with yourself, you know, and like really reflecting like, you've been grinding at this for
Kira Troilo (36:40.394)
Good, good.
Kira Troilo (36:53.012)
Mmm. Mm -hmm.
Where's that coming from?
Jennifer Apple (37:03.0)
so long and only now is it finally feeling like those version of quote unquote success that people deem is like being afforded to you when it has nothing to do with that. It has to do with like, you know, like what kind of shows you were doing and what communities you were doing. And do they even have awards to begin like who like who's and also does it matter? And then it was like, OK, no, no, actually, what's happening here, what an award ultimately could be is just like acknowledging the performance that you made and how impactful it was. And I think once I was able to do a lot of
work on myself to navigate those complex feelings and try to receive the gratitude in it. I'm still not great at it. It's still, you you saw like I did not even prepare an ounce of a speech because in my mind it's like that wasn't going to happen because I was just the award was so beautiful. And also, frankly, I'm thinking like in the time that we're living in, they would never award somebody who is in a show that has to do with this conflict, you know, and just like a lot of the external stuff where I'm, you know,
Kira Troilo (37:40.765)
Mm
Jennifer Apple (38:02.635)
mental gymnastic -ing myself out of even thinking that it's possible to quote -unquote win something. All of which is to say
the down of this like long roller coaster that really was personally and professionally impactful has been tough because there's no linearity to what we do. You're not a doctor who goes to, you know, med school and then you become a resident and then you become you're a doctor. Like you could do multiple things and get a lot of accolades or respect or acknowledgement. And you don't necessarily know how those things are adding up, when they will actually garner you the kind of work that you are
Kira Troilo (38:18.428)
Yeah.
Kira Troilo (38:37.415)
Mm -hmm.
Jennifer Apple (38:40.987)
craving to do, the relationships that you are trying to be, like you have no concept of what any of it means because it's not gageable. And so that's been really hard if I'm being really transparent and honest, which is like, you know, I have people that are like, like, how are you doing now post winning an award? And it's like, actually the same as you like, you know, like literally this, you saw me at an EPA, like I don't like we're here together. Like, what do you think is happening? So, yeah, it's been really tough. It's really tough.
Kira Troilo (38:51.878)
Yeah.
Kira Troilo (38:59.112)
Yeah!
Kira Troilo (39:04.999)
Right.
Kira Troilo (39:09.87)
Yeah, no, and thank you for the transparency. Because I know more artists than not feel that way. They go through it and we just don't talk about it. I always tell this story about I did a show in Ogunquit, Maine with Katie Huffman, who won the Tony for the producers. But she ends up, she wins a Tony and then she ends up in a little cabin in the woods with me, new to theater at the time. This is the job.
Jennifer Apple (39:17.177)
Yeah. Correct.
Jennifer Apple (39:24.623)
Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. Yep.
Jennifer Apple (39:34.65)
Mm
Yeah. Yeah.
Kira Troilo (39:39.12)
It's like you reach a certain level and you still...
Jennifer Apple (39:42.526)
It's humbling. is consistently humbling. And this is honestly like a part of the industry that I don't like.
Kira Troilo (39:50.344)
Mm
Jennifer Apple (39:50.398)
In some ways, it's like nice to remember that we're all in it together and swimming together. And there's like a little bit of a kumbaya moment to it that like, you you can't get complacent and that you have to continue hustling in your own way. And you have to continue, you know, cultivating relationships and all of those things. Like I like all that we're all in some way on the same playing field for it. That is nice. And at the same time, it can. That's partially like how it can lead to the burnout part of it. It's like I've worked so hard and I've gotten all these things or I've felt this way in these kinds of shows that I've been performing and I've grown in this way or I've taken this class and I want to now put it to work in an actual production.
whatever it like all these growth moments because of the lack of linearity with all of it, it becomes really difficult to.
you know, sometimes often always remember that like, we can't see how it's going to play out. And so you just have to like trust the process that it is working. But it's hard and it's awful. And it's really frustrating. And, you know, I'd like to, you know, be like rainbows and butterflies here and be like, but it's just in you to like keep yourself positive and like, and like sometimes it is that. like, it's hard.
Kira Troilo (40:30.983)
always.
Kira Troilo (40:41.212)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kira Troilo (40:54.445)
No, no, but it's it is hard. yeah, we've talked a ton about how we do that in ourselves. But like, that's why I, you know, I'm here is like, we also need industry wide changes. And yeah, so I wonder in your, yeah, just where you are right now in this difficult time. It's like, there's only so many things we can do. What are some things that you think the industry at large can be doing better?
Jennifer Apple (41:00.778)
Yeah.
Jennifer Apple (41:14.737)
Yeah.
my God. where do we begin? Where do we begin? I think there's a lot of...
Jennifer Apple (41:28.217)
It's really hard to make change for anyone again on like an individual level and certainly on a macro level when money is involved. think first and foremost, it's like really remembering that ultimately what we're a part of is a business. And I think for me, when when shit hits the fan, I have to remind myself of that, which is we are operating in a business, which is capitalism. And you can have feelings about it and you could be mad at it and you could be anti it. But that is the system that we're operating in currently. And the shift doesn't happen overnight.
Kira Troilo (41:30.205)
Mm.
Kira Troilo (41:35.612)
always.
Kira Troilo (41:55.804)
That's right.
Jennifer Apple (41:58.131)
to all of a sudden no longer be at Matt, even if that's what you want. So I try to remind myself that these are like micro movements that have to begin and usually they start on an individual level. So I think for myself, it's really trying to have uncomfortable conversations, put myself in spaces that I listen more than I speak, that I learn and unlearn a lot of what I know or don't know.
Jennifer Apple (42:27.573)
really try to be uncomfortable as often as possible without the detriment of my own mental health and wellness. I think, you know, for any of us who have any kind of platform, sounds so ill -heed, but like any kind of platform to really give space to people who can speak on things that...
Kira Troilo (42:35.282)
Yes.
Jennifer Apple (42:44.967)
we can't, you know, so like on my podcast, I really try very hard to bring on individuals who come from many different backgrounds, certainly, and intersectionalities of their own identities, but also people who see the world in a different way that I do so that we can then have conversations to learn from each other and grow in that way. But I think on a more macro level, you know, I didn't become an actor so that I again could like lose myself in somebody else
completely. I also though didn't become an actor so that I could exclusively play myself.
I didn't. And I think we're kind of at this really, I would call it dangerous hub right now where for many communities, there is this respect, I would say around casting it, quote unquote, authentically for whoever is a part of that community. And then there are other communities. And as a Jewish person, I will name that that within, say, the Jewish theater making worlds that is less important and not as crucial for people who are at the top to like actually put people in those roles to
Kira Troilo (43:25.382)
Mm.
Jennifer Apple (43:50.048)
those stories and while I don't want to be in a world where only Jews play Jews and only you know I don't even have the other but like I don't want that that's not why I became go for it
Kira Troilo (43:51.127)
Mm -hmm.
Kira Troilo (43:59.118)
Well, like, right, like me playing, like I'm a black biracial woman, like me just playing biracial women, like there are none. There are none.
Jennifer Apple (44:04.616)
Correct, correct, correct, exactly. Like I don't wanna, I'm not here to do that. However, if that is what we are doing currently, then we need to be doing that for everyone. And so I'm struggling now with navigating that in the industry where you have people who are choosing to do shows that.
are about the thing, about Jewish identity, about Israel -Palestine conflict, about the Holocaust. And again, I'm talking from personal experience here. And they're not casting these things authentically when the story is actually about the thing. That, I think, is harmful and perpetuating stereotypes and perpetuating hate. And that is actually more harmful than doing good. And at the same time,
Kira Troilo (44:36.623)
Mmm. Yeah.
Jennifer Apple (44:54.457)
I don't want to be in a world where I'm only able to play a Jewish woman. And so I think I'm struggling to navigate my place currently with that, where arguably I actually can't even get seen for Jewish roles, and or get called back for Jewish roles at best. Certainly, you know, but at the same time, like I'm not only wanting to do that. So then what else is out there for me to be a part of? And obviously, I can only speak on behalf of myself and my own experience with it. But I do think that this is a very slippery slope and a really scary one.
Kira Troilo (45:02.756)
Hmm.
Jennifer Apple (45:24.552)
one that feels terrifying to talk about because...
Kira Troilo (45:28.89)
Yeah.
Jennifer Apple (45:30.095)
It feels like, well, you're ungrateful or it's like there's always like some justification around somebody having feelings around it. And I would love if on like a micro movement for change in the industry, we can at least just like listen to why someone's having the feeling like that feels that feels like a tangible change for me as opposed to like shutting people down into corners and making them feel like they can't talk about it, which is actually where we are, where people I'm having these conversations
Kira Troilo (45:48.237)
Yes! We -
Jennifer Apple (46:00.165)
behind closed doors with a lot of friends of mine when casting breakdowns come out, let alone the actual release of the cast list and being like, wow, okay, so that's, -hmm, they probably are incredible and we're seeing it again, right? So it's like, there's a conversation that we can have here where people aren't shutting each other down and are listening to one another and are making space and are being empathetic and you don't have to say anything, you can just hear and it doesn't.
Kira Troilo (46:29.176)
Yes!
Jennifer Apple (46:29.712)
make you feel like you can get canceled or shut down and never work again.
Kira Troilo (46:34.244)
100 % and I'm grateful that you're talking about it and I'm trying to talk about it as well. It's like difficult conversations. said on a micro level, but I think on a macro level, we don't have the muscle.
Jennifer Apple (46:46.282)
Yeah, for sure.
Kira Troilo (46:46.67)
Like as a country, as people, as an industry of talking and disagreeing and having that discourse be okay. And it doesn't mean you have to, again, we're in a business, we're in a workplace. It doesn't mean you have to agree, but we do need to hear. as artists, like that's our job, right? Is to hear. So I think it's so crucial. I, you know, we could go on for another episode, which maybe we should, but about how I feel, you know, about some of the casting choices that are made.
Jennifer Apple (46:53.48)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jennifer Apple (46:59.894)
for sure.
Jennifer Apple (47:10.25)
Yeah.
Kira Troilo (47:16.664)
I think there's a lot of situations where theaters are doing the thing that's visible to not get in trouble.
Jennifer Apple (47:21.822)
Yeah. Yeah. And but that in of itself is so dangerous because then we're again perpetuating a visual representation of something rather than the actual thing. You know, like, correct.
Kira Troilo (47:26.911)
Exactly!
Kira Troilo (47:33.186)
That's right. That's right. And the why behind that, then that's my work really. And you what I'm trying to do with inclusive sages is like, what is your why? What matters? What's gonna not make social media yell at me?
Jennifer Apple (47:46.165)
Yeah.
Kira Troilo (47:47.72)
So I think we need to write, we need to have those conversations. I talk about it with mixed race folks all the time of, okay, so I am actually these two races, which one can I play? Which one do I look like, right? Or do I? Or are there any, it does my identity match. So yes, it's such a big conversation and I think, right, it just starts with hearing people and being able to talk.
Jennifer Apple (47:55.925)
Mm.
Uhhh... Ugh...
Jennifer Apple (48:04.302)
Yeah.
Jennifer Apple (48:08.504)
Yeah, and that's so hard where you have people who are, and I find this all the time that I...
I'm always, truly like always, compartmentalizing parts of my identity around other people, frankly for their own comfort, because it's certainly not comfortable for me having to dim parts of myself because I don't feel safe. But what a shame that we are unable to, as a society frankly, to hold people and their complexities. If people are nothing if not complete,
Kira Troilo (48:26.499)
Right.
Kira Troilo (48:32.792)
That's right.
Jennifer Apple (48:46.05)
That's why we're humans and in addition to being animals, right? Like that's if we can't hold that then like what are we doing? You know, and if we can't hold that as artists who are trying to tell stories of the human condition, you know, then what are we doing? Like I don't love the fact that you're sitting with yeah mixed race folks who are like, let me lead with a certain part. Like no, that is that. Yeah. Yeah, like that's so that's so.
Kira Troilo (48:46.595)
Yeah.
Kira Troilo (48:54.005)
Mm -hmm.
Kira Troilo (49:08.036)
Right, let me change my middle name so you know that I'm this... Yeah, right, right.
Jennifer Apple (49:15.376)
It's heartbreaking for me to know that that is what is unconsciously or perhaps consciously being asked of human beings so that they can feel safe, seen and heard, but only for parts of themselves when it is palpable and palatable for other people. That breaks my heart in like all sorts of ways. And it is certainly the area that I feel
Kira Troilo (49:35.532)
Right. Mm -hmm.
Jennifer Apple (49:43.477)
could be the low hanging fruit. But you know, we have a lot, a lot of work to get to that.
Kira Troilo (49:47.49)
Yeah, so much work, I mean, it's just beautifully, you my final question is always what does inclusion look like to you going forward? And I think you said low hanging fruit, right? I think, I mean, what do you think? What do you think is the next iteration that feels better?
Jennifer Apple (49:57.028)
Yeah.
Jennifer Apple (50:04.476)
I really, yeah, I mean, it's not.
It's not definitive in terms of like these are the actual thing. I think it's kind of similar to what I was saying, which is like, I don't want people to have to compartmentalize who they are. I don't want people to have to hide parts of themselves because they're afraid. Myself included. I don't want anybody to feel that it is mental and emotional and physical gymnastics that are taxing on us in ways that we're not even really fully sure of yet. And I don't want to live in a world, which unfortunately we do, but I don't want to live in a world where because of our safety, which is so
Kira Troilo (50:15.864)
That's right.
Kira Troilo (50:32.224)
Hmph.
Jennifer Apple (50:36.612)
real, we have to to hide parts of ourselves. I recognize why and I know why I do it and I'm grateful that my body and my system is able to do that for me. I just wish that we didn't have to so that we can show up fully and gorgeously and openly in all of our intersectionalities of everything and learn from other people who are different than us or share parts of themselves with us and frankly what it's doing by minimizing these parts of ourselves is
Kira Troilo (50:40.802)
Mm
Kira Troilo (50:45.942)
Mm -hmm.
Jennifer Apple (51:05.414)
actually like separating us further. Like we might not even know that a person shares this with us if they've already, if they've chosen to out of necessity, of course, like dim that part of themselves for their own safety in this room. And what that could have done if they were able to show up fully is now we've had more of a communal experience of actually being able to be in partnership and understanding with another human who actually can support us in different ways that we don't even need to feel protected. So it's just the loss and it's really upsetting and clearly have a lot of feeling.
Kira Troilo (51:07.575)
Yes.
Kira Troilo (51:15.245)
Mm -hmm.
Kira Troilo (51:30.219)
Right?
Kira Troilo (51:34.052)
Hahaha
Jennifer Apple (51:35.378)
about it so you probably shouldn't have gotten restarted.
Kira Troilo (51:38.738)
No, no, it but it's all to me. It's all exciting and hopeful because what does inclusion look like it like it?
looks like we can bring all of ourselves to a room. I just, yeah, I share so much of this with you and like, well, what parts of myself are palatable? What part of, do you only want me because of this part? Or if I, you know, if I actually share how I'm feeling or what I'm thinking, am I safe? So right, that we can all psychologically, we can all be psychologically safe bringing our whole selves. And that, right, there are steps.
Jennifer Apple (51:46.015)
Yeah.
Jennifer Apple (51:49.764)
Thank you.
Jennifer Apple (52:08.513)
That would be great. And it would put therapists a little bit out of business at the moment.
Kira Troilo (52:14.597)
Well, the people who are working on this need the therapists, right? So to me, no, to me it's hopeful because, you I think there are more people who see problems who aren't speaking. So I hope, I trust that there are people who are gonna hear this and feel comforted and feel seen and...
Jennifer Apple (52:18.261)
Yeah, it's true. It's very true.
Jennifer Apple (52:36.611)
I hope so.
Kira Troilo (52:37.622)
Yeah. Hopefully people who are listening to inclusive stages and the empowered artists, know, podcast, collective podcasts, are interested in growing and learning. So that's, that's what I'm committed to. And I know that's what you're committed to. So we're in it together, friend. Yes. Well, thank you so much. you'll have, yeah, you'll have to come back, obviously a million more things to talk about. but so appreciate your time and energy and, your light.
Jennifer Apple (52:43.107)
collective, yeah.
Jennifer Apple (52:50.583)
Yeah, for sure. Yay.
Jennifer Apple (53:00.035)
I would love that.
Jennifer Apple (53:04.801)
Yeah.
Thank you for having me. I'm so grateful for this. I'm so grateful that I know you. I'm so grateful to have worked with you. Hopefully I get to work with you again. And I'm, yeah, I feel like by starting in these small little, you know, conversations, hopefully they make an impact and more people know where to go when they want to start making those shifts and changes. I'm always a resource if anybody ever wants to slide into the DMs or emails or work together, I'm here to have a conversation, kindly and respectfully.
Kira Troilo (53:07.561)
And yeah.
Kira Troilo (53:35.352)
Yes, that's right, that's right, these are the guidelines. Thank you so much Jennifer.
Jennifer Apple (53:38.724)
Yeah. Thank you.
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