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The theater is built to tell stories—but have you ever thought about the stories of the real humans bringing these narratives to life? The hardships they’ve faced? The dreams they have and whether or not they’ve reached them? These lived experiences inform who they are as people and are opportunities for them to connect with each other! This is something I saw play out between Carlee Fallon and Carolyn Saxon.
The theater industry is evolving and bringing in EDI consultants is becoming more of a practice (thankfully!), but the real change comes from real humans connecting with and learning from each other. I was able to collaborate with Carlee and Carolyn for a concert series called Uplift. I just knew I wanted to be able to share their story and highlight their beautiful friendship. Today I’m talking with these two amazing women about all things inclusion, the theater, and bravely having those uncomfortable conversations in order to grow as humans. I know you’re going to love these two—so please, enjoy the show!
In this episode, we cover:
How Carlee and Carolyn started out in theater
How Carlee was able to heal by coming back to theater
Carolyn’s first role and if she’d do it over again
What it’s felt like for Carlee navigating theater as a trans woman
The skills Carlee has gained because of theater
What Carlee’s why is and how she discovered it
How transitioning has helped Carlee get even more familiar and comfortable with herself
Carolyn’s journey playing pre-prescribed roles that existed for her “type”
What Carolyn and Carlee have learned from working with each other
How Carolyn navigated using preferred pronouns
The power of asserting your boundaries and using your voice
What it was like for Carolyn and Carlee to collaborate on Uplift
The importance of being able to make mistakes as a human being
The various roles in theater and how they contribute to inclusion
What’s one takeaway you had from this candid conversation? Find us on social media and share with us!
More About Carlee Fallon
Carlee's passion has always been performing, which she still does, in addition to teaching and working towards her second Master's in Clinical Mental Health Counseling. As an out and proud trans woman, Carlee has a deep appreciation for Diversity and Inclusion in the Arts and stands by the equitable treatment of those who are marginalized. She feels honored to be a part of the Inclusion Stages podcast and is excited that these conversations are being had!
More About Carolyn Saxon
Carolyn is a performing storyteller, tastemaker, supporter and patron of the Arts. Her decades-long career spans Broadway, Off-Broadway, Film, Television, Regional Theatre, Orchestral and Sacred work. She shares her talents with audiences all over the world and makes her home in Dorchester, Massachusetts.
Links & Mentioned Resources
Connect with Carlee:
Connect with Carolyn:
Connect with Kira:
Thanks for joining me on this episode of Inclusive Stages! If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review on Apple or Spotify to help me reach even more theater makers, theater artists, and theater lovers who want to make our industry a better place for everyone.
Thanks to our music composer, Zachary McConnell, and our producer, Leah Bryant.
More about the Inclusive Stages Podcast
Welcome to 'Inclusive Stages' -- the go-to weekly podcast for theater makers, theater artists, and theater lovers who want to make our industry a better place for everyone. We'll chat with actors, directors, designers, scholars, and more about the current landscape of the theater scene and get their thoughts on how we can do better.
Host Kira Troilo will also give you a sneak peek into live EDI coaching sessions and offer actionable tips for creating more equitable, inclusive, and empathetic theater spaces that support and value the diversity of artists and audiences. Join the conversation, and let's collectively shape the future of human-first theater, one stage at a time.
The unedited podcast transcript for this episode of the Inclusive Stages podcast follows
Kira Troilo (00:03.188)
Hi Carlee!
Carlee (00:04.672)
Hi, Kira, how are you doing today?
Kira Troilo (00:06.956)
Good, how are you doing?
Carlee (00:08.868)
I am so great and I am so grateful to be on this podcast with you. Oh my goodness.
Kira Troilo (00:14.052)
I am beyond grateful you're here. I'm so excited. And we also have Carolyn. Hi, Carolyn.
Carolyn Saxon (00:20.502)
Hello, Kira and hello, Carlee I'm also really excited to be here as well.
Carlee (00:23.896)
Hi, Carolyn.
Kira Troilo (00:26.356)
Yes, no thank you both so much. I just, you know, in having these conversations, I thought about two people in my life and my work who've come together and had some just really beautiful conversations that stuck with me. And I think it's important to share those with our theater community and you know, those theater lovers out there. So thank you so much again for your time and energy here today. Yay.
Carlee (00:52.612)
Of course, thank you for having us. Yeah.
Carolyn Saxon (00:53.014)
Thank you for asking me. Thank you.
Kira Troilo (00:54.852)
Of course. So I ask everyone to get started. I think it's important to know where we all come from. So I'd love, I'm gonna go with you Carlee first. I'd love to know what you consider your theater origin story.
Carlee (01:09.428)
Oh my gosh, my theater origin story. My theater origin story begins with a young boy who was obsessed with putting on his mother's clothes and putting on performances around the house. I have these distinct memories of lining up all of my teddy bears and making my mom sit down on the couch and just watch me dance to the end credits of movies. And then when I was nine years old, my mom was like, you know what?
Carlee (01:38.108)
let's put them in theater. And so that began my journey. And then I did theater all through elementary school, middle school, high school. I went to college at the University of Hartford, the Hart School of Music for musical theater. I was there for two years and then got sick and had to take a step back.
And then that kind of evolved my career trajectory in terms of performing arts. But it's always been a passion of mine. I think the performing arts is just pure creative expression and it's that ability to tap into those emotional kind of capacities that we don't always allow ourselves to express in the normal human world. So it was a beautiful way for me to develop my empathy skills.
Kira Troilo (02:03.071)
Right.
Carlee (02:32.084)
my self-reflection, and really hone in on a craft that I feel very strongly about, and that really moves me. It's a very powerful thing. And so that really brought me to where I am today. And now I am in school, and I'm getting my license to be a clinical mental health counselor. I'm so, so excited about that, and something that's so wonderful about theater. is that it exists on so many levels, right? So when I was younger, I had that Broadway dream and I thought that was my, you know, I was on a one-way train to New York City and I'm not looking back, my thoroughly modern Millie ripped the home ticket and throw it in the air and now I'm really looking at it as how can I still engage in something that brings me so much joy, that fulfills me.
Kira Troilo (03:17.769)
Yes.
Carlee (03:27.308)
but that I'm still able to harness other passions of mine, like helping others. And so it's really cool that I get to do that. But yeah, I still think of young Connor and whenever I'm performing, I think of him and I think of myself now as Carlee, a strong woman in theater and how he's looking at me. And yeah, that little boy, just all he wanted to do was perform. And now as a woman, I get to do it. It's wonderful.
Kira Troilo (03:51.986)
Hmm.
Yes, it's just the most beautiful. And I know we'll hear from Carolyn in a bit that she did that New York, Millie journey. But you talk about Connor. I would love also to know, because I know, but I'd love you to share, what was Carlee's origin story? Yes.
Carlee (04:15.848)
Oh, that's awesome. Oh, so Carlee's origin story is, I know, I'm such a goofball. I get so excited. So Carlee's origin story, my origin story, that's kind of cool, my origin story is that I got back into theater when I first transitioned and I got to play my first female role. It was life-changing in so many ways, honestly.
Kira Troilo (04:21.924)
No, gosh, I just love it. Love it.
Carlee (04:45.364)
Because when I came out as trans, it wasn't, and I know we'll talk more about this, but I didn't know if there was a place for me in theater. So I auditioned for a production of a chorus line at Westin Friendly Society of the Performing Arts, directed and choreographed by Daniel Sullivan. And I played Bebe. And it was such a special experience because my first professional production was at Regal Music Theater,
Carlee (05:14.996)
what was then Regal Players, in their production of a chorus line back in 2000 and, oh gosh, 2012, when I was 16. And that was my first professional gig and then skip ahead 11 years. And I'm in the same show in a different role as a different gender. In my gender, it was so affirming, so affirming, both of, oh my gosh, it was...
Kira Troilo (05:16.736)
That's right.
Carolyn Saxon (05:38.955)
Yeah.
Carlee (05:44.436)
that, that relit that spark. And I was like, this is what I need to be doing. It was an incredible experience. I would not trade that for anything in the world. Getting to sing at the ballet, getting to sing about never feeling beautiful enough, you know, it just resonated. It hit such a deep place. And I'm very grateful for that experience.
Kira Troilo (06:08.596)
Yeah, oh it's so great and just the fact that you got to do that show again that you love so much as you. Yeah, oh it's amazing. I know we'll, yeah, we'll talk more about the project that brought you two together because in that project you shared a lot about each other's experiences. But I'd love, Carolyn, first to just get your theater origin story.
Carlee (06:14.124)
Yeah, I love it.
Carolyn Saxon (06:31.542)
Well, it's probably not going to sound nearly as eloquent as Curly's did, but I'll try to sum it up as best I can. And I realized, I forgot a bit of it when we talked about Uplift. I was talking to my dear friend, Todd, the other day, and we were just having a kiki about when we were little things that we used to do that made us know that we were lifelong theater kids and will be forever.
Carolyn Saxon (06:57.582)
And he made a joke about how he used to get his friends together and, you know, like on his own, you know, and they would just, uh, they would do boys to bed songs. They would just do things and, you know, like they would just choreograph and sing and stuff. And I was like, oh yeah. When I was in, I was, I was in, I was in a day camp down the street one summer and we just did the whiz and we didn't have any, you know, like, of course I like passed it.
Kira Troilo (07:10.106)
Oh, yes.
Carolyn Saxon (07:25.574)
I directed it, put myself in as Dorothy, and the counselors didn't help. They just let me do it, and I had an album, and it was just like, you know, you were just doing it. So I guess what I realized was that my theater journey started a lot earlier than I think I may have discussed it when we were working on Uplift. So when I was seven, I realized I could sing. Like I could really sing, and I was good, but I could do it, you know? And of course, hopefully you get better. But...
Kira Troilo (07:26.841)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Carolyn Saxon (07:54.89)
You know, and that also realized that I absolutely loved it. And it was the first thing in my life that I absolutely really loved, aside from reading. And I did the whole thing. I did chorus at school. I did church choirs. But they were not gospel choirs. Everybody always looks at me and says, oh, you must've been singing gospel forever. No, I started singing gospel in about 2009, seriously. And I still have a long, long way to go there.
Carolyn Saxon (08:25.11)
But so I started, my first professional performance was like someone gave me money to actually sing, was around when I was 18 or so, I did this production of God Spell in college, and it was a weird moment in my life because I was experiencing some, not homelessness, but some, like, you know, I was crashing on couches. My parents had split.
Kira Troilo (08:25.856)
hard.
Carolyn Saxon (08:53.026)
and the home situation was precarious. And there was some food insecurity and things and it informs a lot about me today. But I kept performing. I kept finding ways to just do shows. And it eventually led me to the school I went to. I went to a university in Western New York called Niagara University. And I learned how to, well, it was more of a dramatic school.
Kira Troilo (08:57.097)
Mm-hmm.
Carolyn Saxon (09:22.386)
And I learned how to, and theatrical literature, and I learned how to go to a real rehearsal. I learned how to study lines. I learned how to audition for plays and musicals. And I did that and I graduated. And I sort of did all this stuff to support my theater habit. Like I worked everywhere. I did a lot of temping in, first of all, in factories.
And then I learned how to, and I taught myself how to do the Microsoft Office suite of applications. And I taught myself by, I kept going to places to temp offices and like taking the test and failing, but I just kept learning how to do it. That's how I taught myself how to do Excel. And I taught myself how to work, you know, how to do Microsoft Word. It's just, it's just crazy. The things that you do.
Carolyn Saxon (10:17.022)
And it's also that I could work during the day and do shows at night, which is what I'm still doing. But anyway, I digress. So I eventually, I did just a ton of stuff in Buffalo when I was still there. And then I came to the point where I realized that if I didn't go to New York and try, I would really resent myself. And that's the last thing you wanna do. It's like, if things happen and they don't work out your way, that's one thing. But when you're the reason it's not working out.
Carolyn Saxon (10:47.238)
The way you want it and you know, you're not trying you know It's like what am I gonna kick myself in the butt every night before bed? You're not gonna do that. So I went to New York and It was I did ten years in the in the Big Apple and it was there were some successes There were some abject failures a lot of rejection some people saying yes some people saying no Sometimes Carolyn saying no sometimes Carolyn maybe saying yes when she shouldn't have but
Kira Troilo (10:54.603)
Right.
Carolyn Saxon (11:16.978)
You know, it was all part of the process. It was great. And then I injured myself and I, it was, I had some knee trouble before and I hurt myself seriously and I had to have a surgery and it just never quite worked out and I had to have another one. And by around this time, I had met the man I was gonna marry and he is very much a Boston.
Carolyn Saxon (11:45.842)
New England guy and there's this thing about the writing being on the wall and you know it's there and you can you read it and you can either pay attention to it or not and I started to listen to all the signs like I love New York and I loved being there and I never thought I was going to leave. However with being injured and getting older and not wanting to live like a student for the rest of my life and
Kira Troilo (11:47.352)
Mm-hmm
Carolyn Saxon (12:11.618)
finding my partner and you know find you know I had a job and that I could do in other places. I just I took a leap. I left New York. I came to Boston. It was really hard. I was here for two years before I even sang a note again which is now to me it's like it's crazy. I can't believe it took that long but I found a gospel choir, a community chorus and I just started singing again
Carolyn Saxon (12:42.014)
And then I sent some old friends from back in the day when I was in New York. And actually I met them actually when I was in Buffalo and they had come to do a regional gig in Buffalo and we became friends. They did this musical review that I did in Rhode Island somewhere. And a woman in the cast said, oh, Speakeasy Stage is looking for people for In the Heights. Now...
Today, I should not be auditioning for In the Heights. However, at the time, I know we did it. We did it and we did the show and I'm so thankful I got to do it because it was wonderful. And I understand that the role of Abuela Claudia needs to be a Latina and that's fine. But I had my chance and that was the first show I did here in town. And it's been, and then I
Kira Troilo (13:13.785)
Me neither, but we did it.
Carolyn Saxon (13:37.994)
your husband's just gonna have to understand and your job is just gonna have to understand that nights and weekends are for theater. And that's it. And that's the path. And it's a long story. And I'm sorry if I took too long, but I'm still doing it. And I still, I'm not just performing. Now I'm also getting into some of the behind the table stuff. I'm working with some casting. I'm working on, I did, I associate directed a show recently.
Carlee (13:52.544)
Yeah.
Carolyn Saxon (14:05.842)
I'm on a board to try to help some of these nonprofits raise money. I'm always somewhere to turn and like help someone raise money. And I, you know, and I'm still auditioning. I'm still waiting to hear from Regal, too. I think you are too curly, right? And, you know, I'm they don't need that. I don't need to be sleeping on these people. But anyway, but because you don't get who you want. But anyway, you know, and I, you know, and I, you know, I'm still out there doing it and trying to find.
Kira Troilo (14:21.856)
Rachel Bertone, what's going on?
Carolyn Saxon (14:35.49)
place to tell stories and sing songs whenever possible.
Kira Troilo (14:49.36)
Yeah, just one thing for those listeners who can't see us, I just wanna name, you know, we said, that we shouldn't do in the Heights. You know, Carolyn and I are both black actresses. So, you know, it's kind of a, I would say conversation for another day, but I think it's, you know, it's something that we're dealing with and just like authenticity and representation in theater.
Carolyn Saxon (15:18.326)
And if you're gonna talk the talk, I believe you need to live it. And I loved playing that role. However, there are women who probably, that is another conversation. That's a whole nother conversation, you're absolutely right. And it's hard for me to like get into it and feelings. So, you know.
Kira Troilo (15:33.556)
Hmm. Yes. Hmm. Yeah. Well, okay, well, season two. Let's table it and we'll go back to that one. Yay. Yeah, I mean, let's talk about, you kind of shared in your stories, but Carlee, you know, more maybe in depth. What has it felt like navigating theatre?
Carlee (15:39.809)
Hmm.
Carolyn Saxon (15:42.654)
Yes. Mm-hmm.
Carlee (15:43.465)
Ah!
Kira Troilo (16:00.636)
And I also just want to add, you know, another reason that I connect to both of you so deeply is because you're both helpers. I just, that's how I kind of moved into where I've moved to is just my journey in theater led me to do something beyond. So I'm just curious, yeah, what was, yeah, what has navigating theater been like and how did it bring you to where you are?
Carlee (16:07.672)
Yeah.
Carlee (16:13.56)
Mm-hmm.
Carlee (16:18.804)
Yeah.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
Carlee (16:28.424)
Yeah, thank you for asking, because I have a lot to say. I will definitely keep it short and concise. But no, there's a lot that goes into that. And I think that what you just said, Kira, is so poignant in that we are helpers, and that in theater, the skills that you learn in theater are so applicable to just being a human being, right? Performing truly is in my...
Carolyn Saxon (16:53.066)
Absolutely.
Kira Troilo (16:53.179)
Mmm.
Carlee (16:56.132)
And like my view of it, it's, you're demonstrating the human condition, right? So you're taking these lived experiences of these characters and bringing them to life in a way that is meaningful for the audience, right? And meaningful for you. And, you know, I think about my friends who went to theater with me and they're all in different, a lot of them are in different fields as well, but the skills that I learned, the empathy,
Kira Troilo (17:03.728)
Mmm, yeah.
Kira Troilo (17:15.465)
Yeah.
Carlee (17:24.792)
the public speaking, the ability to have interpersonal relationships, the ability for self-reflection and self-awareness, those skills don't just go away. So I just, I had to say that. But to answer your question in a more directed way, navigating the world of theater as a
Kira Troilo (17:40.908)
Yes. Mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (17:47.593)
Yes.
Carlee (17:54.716)
so different than navigating theater as a male. Well, we talk a lot about in our everyday world, the male privilege in theater, the male privilege. Oh my gosh, you know? And it's something that my friends would always talk about with me growing up, because Connor, taking a step back for a hot second, Connor...
Kira Troilo (17:59.132)
Mm-hmm. Say more.
Carolyn Saxon (18:10.818)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (18:11.404)
Mmm
Carlee (18:23.708)
was a big fish in a small pond growing up. And so there were roles that Connor got to play that maybe he shouldn't have played and maybe he wouldn't have played if there were other men there. But there is always kind of that lack of male presence. What I'm talking about is that you identify as male.
Kira Troilo (18:27.156)
Yeah.
Carlee (18:54.188)
But when I went to the Regal Callback, because that was my first, or the Regal Auditions, that was my first like professional audition since coming out as trans. And oh Lord, because I thought that was so recent. It was a few weeks ago, or a month ago. And when I was there and I was seeing all these other women, I felt this, oh my God, because there were like a hundred of them. And-
Kira Troilo (19:06.868)
That was recent, right? Just recently.
Carlee (19:23.912)
and maybe like 10 guys or, you know, 10 people that identified as male. And I kind of have this feeling of Connor would be feeling a lot more confident right now than I feel. So there is that whole element of now that I am a very small fish in a very big pond. But at the same time, what it's done for me is it's really helped
Carolyn Saxon (19:26.998)
Mm.
Kira Troilo (19:31.124)
Yes.
Kira Troilo (19:39.487)
Mmm.
Carlee (19:53.812)
It's helped humble me in a way. I think that with, you know, I think with anyone, when you get the lead time after time, and I don't say that in arrogance, I say that with, you know, in relation to what I was just acknowledging that there's always a shortage of men to play these male presenting roles, or individuals to play these male presenting roles. And I think that what it's done for me is really, like I said, has humbled me.
Kira Troilo (20:11.488)
Right.
Carlee (20:20.94)
but also is that reminder of, okay, I don't have to do this to be the star. Like, I think that there was a lot of pressure on Connor to always get that new, like to get that part. And that, you know, I couldn't settle, he couldn't settle for anything less. Whereas now I'm kind of like, why is it that I want to perform? I don't want to perform to be the star. I want to perform to, to...
Kira Troilo (20:27.371)
Mmm.
Carolyn Saxon (20:27.419)
Mm-hmm.
Carlee (20:47.452)
engage in that creative expression, to work with a group of other like-minded people and put together a piece of art. Like that process, the process has become so much more important to me as a woman because I guess I don't take it for granted as much as I did prior to transitioning, if that makes sense.
Kira Troilo (21:00.768)
Hmm.
Kira Troilo (21:14.036)
It makes perfect sense.
Carolyn Saxon (21:14.301)
It makes perfect sense.
Carlee (21:15.876)
Yeah, but there's also this other element that when I came out as trans, I was like, Oh, well, there goes my, my dream of being an actor or an actress. Cause I was like, what roles can I play? I still sound like Connor, you know, cause something that they don't always talk about is that when you I'm on, um, I'm, I'm doing or going through hormone replacement therapy. Um, so what that does is it just kind of changes the hormone balance in my system.
Kira Troilo (21:40.337)
Mm-hmm.
Carlee (21:45.732)
to produce more estrogen. And then I also take testosterone blockers, but that does nothing for your voice. So when you're transitioning female to male, there is a voice change that happens when you take testosterone. But when you're transitioning male to female, there's really not. So it's a lot of vocal training. And I just assumed that I was like, well, that's it. And then...
Kira Troilo (21:51.461)
Mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (22:05.334)
Yeah.
Kira Troilo (22:12.981)
Yeah.
Carlee (22:13.772)
That's why I think a chorus line was so special to me because it was that reminder like, no, you can do this. And then not only that, but I see that the theater world is changing. And you have individuals like Jay Harrison Gee, Alex Newell, Justin David Sullivan, Peppermint, these individuals that are on stage and they are bringing the representation of gender non-conforming,
Kira Troilo (22:21.268)
Yes.
Carlee (22:43.796)
and gender diverse individuals and giving them a platform to let their stories be told too. You know, and I think that that's something that really excites me is that I get to be a part of that because it's still in development. And it's something that I feel very passionate about. I feel like art in general is advocacy in its own right and the power that it holds.
Kira Troilo (22:51.612)
Yes.
Kira Troilo (22:56.928)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Carolyn Saxon (23:03.308)
Mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (23:07.963)
Mm-hmm
Carlee (23:11.584)
And so navigating the theater world as a trans woman, it's hard, it's confusing, it's sometimes disheartening, it's also very encouraging. And I think that it takes me putting my ego aside and saying, I am doing this because this is something that fulfills me. This is something, like I said before, that moves me. This is something I have to be doing. It's not because I want the attention, it's not because I want the stardom or the praise.
Kira Troilo (23:31.23)
Mm-hmm.
Carlee (23:41.352)
is because I need to be a part of the creation of art. And that's really what it boils down to.
Kira Troilo (23:45.916)
It sounds like you found... Yeah. It sounds like you found your why.
Carolyn Saxon (23:48.583)
Mm-hmm.
Carlee (23:51.82)
Yeah, thank you. Thank you for saying that, Kira. It does. As I'm speaking, I'm kind of like hearing myself. I'm like, I'm terrible. I could hear myself talk for hours. I'm so bad. But, oh, thank you. I do, girl. I have tons to say. Cause it's so important to me. It's so important.
Kira Troilo (23:53.224)
Yeah.
Kira Troilo (24:02.22)
I hear you talk for hours too, I'm like, just keep going, yeah.
Carolyn Saxon (24:05.266)
do you have something to say? Some people, whoo! Why are you talking? Yeah. And it's real and it's genuine and it's part of your authenticity which you are walking in now which is an amazing thing. You know, yes, absolutely.
Kira Troilo (24:07.44)
Yeah, preach, preach. But it's so, it's so important. And I wanna...
Carlee (24:23.36)
Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much.
Kira Troilo (24:26.024)
Yeah, it really is. And also just thank you for sharing as well because I don't think it's very well known about transitioning from male to female and the voice aspect of it. That was something I learned from you. And on the project.
Carlee (24:39.629)
Yeah.
Carolyn Saxon (24:39.755)
Mm-hmm.
Carlee (24:42.276)
Mm-hmm.
Carolyn Saxon (24:43.222)
I learned that too. I was like, because you see someone like Alex Newell who sings in the stratosphere. And I'm thinking, does that, all of this can't be applicable to everyone, because everyone, it's just like, some people can do this, but some people can't. So how does this work?
Carlee (24:49.237)
Right.
Carlee (25:00.084)
Right. Well, and it's like with other people who are not transitioning or not transgender, we all have different vocal ranges, right? And I think that was also a realization because, you know, of course I want to play the beautiful Anjanu and like have that moment, but I'm also not going to be singing in the stratosphere. So like give me a nice alto belt and I got you. I got you. Um, a solid, solid alto belt and
Carolyn Saxon (25:07.811)
Mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (25:08.361)
Right?
Kira Troilo (25:16.371)
Yes.
Carolyn Saxon (25:20.093)
Okay.
Kira Troilo (25:22.816)
Got you. I got a solid alto belt for you.
Carolyn Saxon (25:24.012)
Mm-hmm.
Carlee (25:28.)
You know, I think that I talked to my girlfriends about this and they're like, well, Carlee, like, yeah, there are roles that we wanna play that we're not gonna be able to play, but it's not because we're transgender. It's because like we don't have that vocal range either. So then, you know, I think that my mind sometimes goes to that extreme of, oh, this is because I'm trans. This is because I am at a disadvantage. When really it's like, no, this is something that everyone experiences.
Carolyn Saxon (25:41.014)
Mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (25:41.14)
Hmm
Kira Troilo (25:48.685)
Mmm
Carlee (25:58.024)
And I, what I'm truly trying to do more of is not looking at my transition as a disadvantage, rather looking at it as an advantage. Like when I was at Regal Callbacks this past weekend, and let me say, I am not a ballerina. I am so not a ballerina. I love to dance. I don't have a lot of formal training, but dancing has always just been a part of my story.
Kira Troilo (26:09.376)
Yeah.
Kira Troilo (26:17.579)
You are a dancer though.
Carlee (26:26.532)
kind of more informally. But so when I was at this dance call, I looked in the mirror and there was a moment where I was like, oh my God, I'm beautiful. Like I look so beautiful right now. And I'm getting kind of emotional just thinking about it because it's like, you know, to have those moments where I can look in the mirror and feel that sense of euphoria, like that just.
Kira Troilo (26:43.628)
Mm.
Carlee (26:53.232)
And someone had made the comment at callbacks, they were like, we love watching you perform. They're like, you just, you put your whole self in it. And I was like, I do because now I know myself more than I've ever known myself. And so there are layers that I bring to everything I do that just weren't there before. And I appreciate it so much more. And so like, when I get to, it's like that Cassie moment in a chorus line, like, who am I without the mirror?
Carolyn Saxon (27:05.714)
Mm hmm.
Kira Troilo (27:06.739)
Mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (27:13.29)
Right.
Carlee (27:22.132)
Like I'm discovering who I am without the mirror. And that allows me to, when I'm in front of it again, be like, look at her go. Like it was, it's a very powerful experience that I have a hard time sometimes putting into words because it's such a visceral feeling, but it's something I wouldn't trade for anything.
Carolyn Saxon (27:30.267)
Mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (27:38.198)
Yeah.
Carolyn Saxon (27:42.942)
You are commended to be commended because you empowered yourself, which is awesome. But we can't wait for others to do it, you know? And that's just amazing.
Kira Troilo (27:43.179)
No.
Carlee (27:50.252)
Thank you. I guess I did, yeah.
Kira Troilo (27:55.08)
No, how many of us, yeah, and like how many of us have looked, and I'm talking like to the people listening, like have looked in the mirror recently and said, I am beautiful. You know, that just made me really emotional. I think we should all strive for that, but that comes with knowing yourself really, really well.
Carlee (27:56.12)
Thank you.
Carlee (28:06.337)
Yeah.
Carolyn Saxon (28:12.014)
Mm-hmm.
Carlee (28:12.394)
Yeah.
Carlee (28:16.612)
because it goes so much deeper than that physical. It's like, this is who I am as a person, you know?
Kira Troilo (28:22.92)
Yeah. I want to hear from you, Carolyn, about...
this connection that I think you and Carlee have. And just for a little background, the project that we've been dancing around, that we worked on was a cabaret where these two ladies shared the stage. It was a concert called Uplift, and it's essentially a program where one more established performer mentors an up-and-comer. So Carolyn was our mentor and Carlee was our up-and-comer. And when the director of that
Rachel Bertone, who we all love. Yes, we talked about people who might go together well. It occurred to me that you both might share the feeling of not feeling like you quite fit into pre-prescribed roles that exist for your quote unquote types. So I wonder Carolyn, if you could talk a little bit about that for you.
Carlee (29:02.124)
Yay.
Carlee (29:19.591)
Mm-hmm.
Carolyn Saxon (29:26.01)
Well, so it's been a long journey. And like, even when I was 18 years old, I was always playing someone's mother, because everybody was. And it's not because I was older than them, but because I was a woman of size, I've never been thin. There's a thing about this whole like black women take care of everybody kind of thing. And all the girls were smaller than me.
Kira Troilo (29:29.656)
Heh. Mmm.
Kira Troilo (29:36.492)
Mm.
Kira Troilo (29:46.024)
Mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (29:52.523)
Yep.
Carolyn Saxon (29:55.138)
And so I've been playing, a long time I had been playing roles that I was too young for. But now I'm kind of in a place where I get to play my age and a little bit younger, which is great. And yeah, I just like, I'm coming into a, I don't know, it's just a whole new like, like group of characters or, you know.
Kira Troilo (30:08.348)
Yes, finally.
Carolyn Saxon (30:21.522)
I can imagine myself in and others imagine me in there as well and it's great. It's opened up a lot of just avenues for me and places to play. And just the experience with Carlee and like, because I hear her tell these stories and I see some parallels, but there are things that are so different as well. You know, I mean, I would never be able to say what it's like to say that I was.
Kira Troilo (30:32.171)
Yeah.
Carlee (30:44.725)
Mm-hmm.
Carolyn Saxon (30:49.77)
well, I was a woman all that time and now I'm playing these roles as a man. I would never be able to tell that sort of story. But I guess my journey with maturity and becoming a more mature performer, it's opened up a lot of things for me, which I never thought would happen. And I remember when I was in Buffalo and I was getting ready to make the move to New York, this man said to me, this man who I really...
Carlee (31:09.764)
Thank you.
Carolyn Saxon (31:17.87)
love. He's a dear man. He's wonderful. He's like, I just don't think you're ever going to work. And I was just like, I didn't understand why he said that to me. And I didn't know if it was like a, you know, I didn't know if he was talking about me in as much as physicality or talent or ability or what kind of shows people, you know, the marketplace, like what's out there. But I never, it never occurred to me that I wouldn't work.
Kira Troilo (31:34.098)
Mm.
Carlee (31:42.596)
Mm-hmm.
Carolyn Saxon (31:47.378)
And that was never part of it either. I always worked. But just seeing, just seeing the transitioning from somebody who's trying to be on a level playing field with a bunch of other 25 year old women who are a lot thinner, can kick their face. And it's just a different, it's just a different world now for me. And it's fun and it's...
Kira Troilo (32:13.524)
Yeah.
Carolyn Saxon (32:16.306)
it's challenging because more of it is expected of me in certain respects. And so there is some parallelism to that journey, but that's more of like, because I'm becoming who I am. And I'm, you know, and I'm still doing it in this space, in this body, it you know, with this color. And it's, it's been, it's been really
wonderful and fun and like, yeah, I feel a lot more myself because I'm not trying to look like a bunch of girls in the chorus or match the girls of the chorus because I never did and I never will. And I don't, I don't expect that of myself anymore either. So it's a lot more freeing and listening to Carlee and watching her as she navigates her journey. It's just been, first of all, the things I'm learning from her, the things I never knew. And just, just to
see her express herself within that. And to, oh my God, I remember where we were the night before we went up. Where like we had a week of, like a little week of rehearsal. Carlee, if it's okay for me to mention, you hadn't been feeling well that week. And just where we went, the two rehearsals where you were, to where you got to performance, it was like, who the hell is this? How did you do that?
Kira Troilo (33:21.334)
Mm.
Carlee (33:29.565)
Oh my gosh, yeah.
Carlee (33:37.924)
Yeah.
Carolyn Saxon (33:41.95)
you know, you were having difficulty talking, you know? And then you went on stage and it was more, it was more dramatic than a caterpillar to butterfly. It was just the difference. And I remember just sitting there looking at you and I couldn't stop smiling. And it was like, yes, I didn't, you know, I was just like, you know, if I...
Kira Troilo (33:46.175)
Mm-hmm.
Carlee (33:46.462)
Mm-hmm.
Carlee (33:56.109)
Ha ha.
Carlee (34:03.76)
Oh, thank you.
Carolyn Saxon (34:08.446)
If I was a parent, I wouldn't, I couldn't have been more proud, you know, and it's just like, and just, just to see that. And it was like a microcosm of, you know, what I felt like I had been going through for, you know, decades, you know, and then you just did it in like these three days, you know, and it was just amazing. It was, it was incredible. So.
Carlee (34:11.96)
Bye.
Kira Troilo (34:25.711)
Mmm.
Carlee (34:25.922)
Ah.
Kira Troilo (34:29.228)
Yeah, it's also something we don't.
Carlee (34:30.213)
Thank you so much, Carolyn.
Carolyn Saxon (34:32.602)
I know that's a little esoteric, but just the journey is always, you know, that's what we're in it for, you know. The end products are great, it's fun, yay, but the journey is what we're all into, in this for, you know, and the process. And it's just been, you know, just watching you grow that way was just an amazing, amazing thing.
Carlee (34:40.993)
Yeah.
Carlee (34:46.835)
Yeah.
Carlee (34:58.756)
That means a lot to me, Carolyn. Thank you.
Carolyn Saxon (35:01.018)
It was so real. I hope so.
Kira Troilo (35:02.196)
Yeah, well that's, I mean, that's my next question is, what did you, what did y'all learn from each other? But I also just want to mention too, that something else I think people need to be aware of in our industry is we can have a one night gig and like you get the flu. Or, you know?
Carlee (35:03.248)
I learned a lot from you, honestly.
Carlee (35:09.447)
Yeah.
Carlee (35:18.932)
Uh huh. Oh my God. Or do you end up in the ER the week before and have no voice for the week?
Carolyn Saxon (35:19.224)
Yep.
Kira Troilo (35:22.524)
Right? Oh my gosh.
Carolyn Saxon (35:23.591)
Mm-hmm. I took another nebulizer, I'll be okay! And you were! Ha ha ha! Like, what? Ha ha ha! Ha ha. Mm-hmm.
Carlee (35:27.932)
I know, literally. Oh, it was so bad. I know.
Kira Troilo (35:30.252)
But it's just like another thing to navigate when you have to perform for a group of people. You know, you prepare, but at the end of the day, like we're human beings and that happens. Yep. That's it.
Carolyn Saxon (35:39.878)
Yeah, one chance. One chance to get it done.
Carlee (35:40.185)
Yeah.
Carlee (35:44.587)
Yeah?
Kira Troilo (35:45.66)
Yeah, no, I just, yeah, I mean, one of my favorite things was just watching you two learn from one another and you already mentioned it. So I'd love to hear, yeah, just your first conversations with each other. I'll also just name the, what I admire so much about it is the grace that you both offer each other in listening and learning, you know, in making mistakes. That's a big part of the work I do is like, we have to talk sometimes about things
Carlee (35:52.129)
Yeah.
Carolyn Saxon (35:52.226)
Easy. And good.
Carolyn Saxon (36:14.215)
Mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (36:15.594)
feel comfortable about in order to grow and learn and be better and create these beautiful friendships like these. So yeah, exactly. So yeah, I'd love to hear you. I always do. But yeah, I mean, whatever. That's it. But yeah, whatever you'd like to share about just like meeting each other and what it was like to have those first, you know, I was, I was honored to be part of some of those, but meeting and getting to know each other.
Carlee (36:22.33)
That's why we make mistakes, right?
Carolyn Saxon (36:27.131)
And I made a few.
Carlee (36:31.264)
Who hasn't?
Carolyn Saxon (36:42.538)
When we were, when we started and we started just trying to talk about what we wanted to, you know, like what we wanted to put in the program and we were just talking about what songs we wanted to do. It took me, I had to like get my out of my head, you know, I had, I just had to start thinking differently. I was like, no, she wants to sing. She's a woman. She wants to sing women things. So you have to get over there. You have to find those things.
Kira Troilo (36:58.642)
Mmm.
Carolyn Saxon (37:11.062)
if we're gonna do something together that, you know, and I'm still working on making sure I get everyone's pronouns correctly. And I know that sounds, you know, probably antiquated at this part, but it's still a thing for me. And it's just, you know, and just remember, because lots of times you'll meet someone, they're like, she's a she, they, and I'm like, okay, where do I say how? And you know, if it's not where I can just call you by your name.
Carlee (37:11.3)
Hmm.
Kira Troilo (37:19.38)
That's right.
Kira Troilo (37:24.128)
Mm-mm. Yes.
Kira Troilo (37:35.38)
Yeah.
Carolyn Saxon (37:40.222)
I want to make sure it's right, you know, and it's like, you know, just, it just, it's a whole different way of, of doing things when, than when I started decades ago. And so, you know, being around Carlee and spending time with her helped me move me towards that because I want to be, I want to be respectful at all times. So spending time with her and, oh, I was trying. Thank you.
Carlee (37:45.128)
Right, right.
Kira Troilo (38:00.209)
Yeah.
Carlee (38:00.337)
Thank you, you always were.
Yeah, no, but you, and I know you were trying, but you always were respectful. You are always respectful.
Kira Troilo (38:04.96)
Yeah.
Kira Troilo (38:11.304)
Yeah, but thank you for saying that Carolyn too, because like I just encounter so many people who are afraid of saying the right thing, but they feel like they can't say it. So they either, right, they either keep fumbling around making mistakes or they just don't bother. They don't engage.
Carolyn Saxon (38:11.911)
Okay, well...
Carolyn Saxon (38:23.735)
Mm-hmm.
Carolyn Saxon (38:28.706)
See, I don't think it's fair to not bother because somebody asked you to please refer to me this way. It's important to them, you know? Yeah, I mean, that's like your name. It's like people get my name wrong a lot, especially here in Massachusetts. I'm called Caroline for reasons I understand, but I gently just remind them that my actual name is what it is. And they usually try to get it, you know, some don't though. And so, you know, and it's just like, but I asked you to refer to me to who I am.
Kira Troilo (38:35.753)
Yes.
Carlee (38:35.932)
Yeah, it's who they are, it's their identity.
Kira Troilo (38:38.789)
Exactly.
Carolyn Saxon (38:58.654)
You know, and I don't think it's any different from someone saying, I, you know, my, these are my pronouns, you know, and I, you know, these are my pronouns. So let's do it. You know, I'm going to refer to you the way you want me to refer to you.
Carlee (38:58.892)
Yeah.
Kira Troilo (39:06.06)
That's right.
Kira Troilo (39:10.012)
Yes.
Carlee (39:10.068)
Yeah, I know, I know.
Absolutely. And I know for me, like something that like when I'm when people when I do get misgendered or especially from people who have known Connor, um, you know, at first I like when I first transitioned, I was like, all right, these are my pronouns, I am like, you know, here I am, queer and proud. And then when I would get misgendered, there was this expectation that I was going to get really mad.
Carolyn Saxon (39:22.446)
Mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (39:32.8)
Yes.
Carolyn Saxon (39:43.755)
Ha ha ha!
Carlee (39:44.676)
And, you know, when I do get misgendered, it hasn't happened in a very long time. I'm very grateful for the fact that I pass, which is a real privilege to have in the trans community. And by pass, I mean, I present as very feminine. And I'm very rarely misgendered anymore, which is such a blessing because it's very affirming to me to be...
Kira Troilo (39:45.694)
Hmm...
Kira Troilo (39:54.389)
Mmm.
Kira Troilo (40:00.384)
Thank you.
Kira Troilo (40:11.975)
Mm-hmm.
Carlee (40:13.332)
gendered in my, in the way I identify. Yeah, you know, it feels nice, go figure. But you know, I think that's something I learned from Carolyn through doing this process, through talking with her, through working with her, is the power in asserting your own boundaries and the power of finding your voice, right?
Kira Troilo (40:16.844)
to be called how and who you are? Yes.
Carolyn Saxon (40:20.031)
Mm-hmm. Bye.
Kira Troilo (40:22.496)
Yeah.
Carolyn Saxon (40:34.242)
Thank you.
Carlee (40:38.312)
And I think that one of my favorite moments of this process, the uplift process, because yes, the week before, just to like, for a hot second, the week before I was devastated. Because I remember sitting in the ER, writing that email to our team, being like, I have no voice, I don't know how this is gonna go, but like, I'm still in it, I wanna do this. And of course, you know, the,
Kira Troilo (40:48.187)
Mm-hmm.
Carolyn Saxon (40:55.467)
Uh.
Kira Troilo (41:00.8)
Mm-hmm.
Carlee (41:07.852)
the performer in me with the ego attached to it was like, oh my God, like here I am saying that I don't get to sing these songs and now I have the opportunity to sing these songs and I can't even really sing them. You know, and so like that was really hard. But I think that something Carolyn reminded, and Carolyn, it was one of the most beautiful moments. We're in the dressing room right before the show is about to go on. And I was saying, I'm really nervous. And Carolyn had said, Carlee, this is your night.
Carolyn Saxon (41:18.582)
then fine.
Kira Troilo (41:19.436)
It's awesome.
Carlee (41:38.06)
Like whatever happens, this is for you. Like this is your chance. And she shared a story with me about performing and when she wasn't feeling too well and she just went on, she was like, well, this is the best that I am right now. And like, so this is what I'm gonna give because I'm never not gonna give my best, whatever that looks like. And...
Kira Troilo (41:40.705)
Mmm.
Kira Troilo (41:57.16)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Carolyn Saxon (42:06.54)
Yeah.
Carlee (42:06.54)
You know, she said it in a much more eloquent, very like mentorship way, but like that was my takeaway. And, you know, I think that I also learned how to command a stage. Wouldn't care, all right, y'all, for those of you who have not have the present, the privilege to see Carolyn Saxon perform, period. This woman walks into the middle of the stage and
Kira Troilo (42:10.708)
Yes.
Carolyn Saxon (42:19.314)
I need that. No!
Kira Troilo (42:19.68)
You sure did.
Carlee (42:33.84)
all eyes are drawn to her. And I remember seeing her in Regal Music Theater's production of Oklahoma last summer and being like, are you kidding me? Like, is Aunt Eller the star of this show? Like, and because she just has that. And I think that it's something that, no, Carolyn, girl, it is the truth. It's the truth. And I think that it's because of what I just said,
Kira Troilo (42:39.634)
Mm-hmm.
Carolyn Saxon (42:40.22)
Thanks.
Carolyn Saxon (42:45.471)
Are you killing me?
Carolyn Saxon (42:54.47)
Oh, that's so kind of you to say, Carlee Thank you. Oh my goodness.
Carlee (43:03.636)
you know yourself and you know that this is the best that I'm going to give and you honor that and you meet yourself where you're at and that's what really helped me get through that night at Uplift. So I'm so grateful for you. Oh thank you. But no, I did, I learned a lot from you.
Carolyn Saxon (43:13.043)
Oh.
Carolyn Saxon (43:17.246)
Well, you were wonderful, so. Oh, thank you. And it was just amazing to see. Oh, thank you. Thank you.
Kira Troilo (43:24.852)
Mmm. It really, I mean it was magical watching, you know? Yeah, I...
Carolyn Saxon (43:28.939)
It was a great night. Mm-hmm.
Carlee (43:29.816)
Yeah, it was.
Kira Troilo (43:31.484)
you, I think my, I mean, there was, all of it was amazing. I was smiling ear to ear the whole time, except for when I was crying, which was also often. But like, Natural Woman, you did a duet on Natural Woman. It was amazing. You did Wicked. We've said, like, we close these concerts out with Wicked for good. It was just beautiful. But it was, it just, to me, it just seemed like you both shared so much of each other.
Carlee (43:38.328)
Uh huh.
Carlee (43:43.96)
Yeah!
Kira Troilo (44:01.598)
with each other. And that read to me. Yeah.
Carlee (44:02.968)
Yeah.
Carolyn Saxon (44:03.87)
It was so great being on stage with her. It was so fun. And it's like, I felt like we totally had command of that moment and it was just ours and it was so much fun to share it. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Carlee (44:07.336)
And likewise, yeah.
Carlee (44:16.053)
We were in it together. We really were.
Kira Troilo (44:17.865)
Yeah, and from what you were saying about like the journey versus the performance, like this really was all about the journey that led to that day. It's not just about that day. It was how we got there. It was so important.
Carlee (44:23.285)
Yeah.
Carolyn Saxon (44:25.45)
Absolutely. Yeah.
Carlee (44:26.774)
Is there?
Carlee (44:30.249)
Yeah, definitely.
Carolyn Saxon (44:30.846)
When you were doing it, Carlee, did you think to yourself, like, how in the world is this good? You know, because I was in it, I was like, this is fantastic. And I was just like, I mean, when we were actually doing the performance, the app like have a rate, did you ever think to yourself during it, like, this is really, really good. And how did it get this good? And you know, it's like, it just, it just,
Carolyn Saxon (44:59.558)
Yeah, no, but the whole thing, us together, the whole thing was so great. And I was like, this is just really, really good. And I felt like totally like my voice did every single thing I wanted it to. That never happens. And this was like, what? You know, it's just what I think I felt. I think at that moment, I felt this is there was a serendipity happening and there was this is exactly where I'm supposed to be at this moment in my life. And I was doing it.
Kira Troilo (45:01.416)
whole thing.
Carlee (45:08.286)
Yes!
Carlee (45:28.66)
Oh, that's beautiful.
Carolyn Saxon (45:28.954)
Exactly what I should be doing. It was just it was it was it was a wonderful night
Carlee (45:34.884)
Yeah, you know, it's funny, I was in my head for a little bit of it, because I was like, you know, when I chose all my song selections, I had a particular key in mind. It was going to really allow me to showcase my voice in new ways that I haven't really been able to before. And then to not be able to do that because of my sickness and all that stuff, I was really in my head.
Carolyn Saxon (45:41.752)
Mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (45:58.45)
Mm-hmm.
Carlee (46:04.328)
And so what I had to do and what I did is I just had to let go of it. And again, it was that reminder of this is the best that I can do right now. And I'm just gonna enjoy the moment.
Carolyn Saxon (46:10.764)
And this is, and it's going to be so good anyway. And weren't we so lucky to have Dan Rodriguez, who, who will do anything to make sure that you're comfortable, literally. And the way that, and, and something that he said when you, when you, we, you know, we were chatting and we're having one of our discussions and we're like, I, yeah, I can, I can't sing in the stratosphere, but I have this fierce alto belt and he's like,
Carlee (46:21.764)
Oh my god, Dan Rodriguez.
Kira Troilo (46:21.804)
Thank you, because I was just about to bring up Dan.
Carlee (46:27.044)
Literally anything. Yeah.
Carolyn Saxon (46:43.25)
Also, we can change the key on anything. So it doesn't matter. You know? And I was like, no, we can change the key on anything. You know? And it's just like, and he was right. Yeah, you can, because we're all musicians. And you know, we can play it, you guys can play in another key and we can sing it higher or lower or where we need to put it, so that it sounds good and it sounds good on the performer, you know? And it'll still work, you know? And he was amazing.
Carlee (46:45.775)
Yeah, exactly.
Carlee (46:50.783)
No, he's brilliant. Yeah.
Carlee (47:06.196)
Yeah, definitely. He was great.
Kira Troilo (47:06.208)
Right.
Yeah, and that is...
That's something on this podcast I'm hoping to explore, just like all the various roles in theater and how they contribute to inclusion. And thank you for bringing up Dan, because that night of your concert, he and I had an amazing conversation about working the responsibility that music directors have to work with trans voices. And just, yeah, thinking about some, you know, known names, but some music directors who are like, they can't sing it, they can't sing it. And the music directors like Dan,
Carolyn Saxon (47:17.294)
Mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (47:40.342)
are like, this is the best person for the part, let me work with them on how to make them sound excellent and feel great. And that is a big, yes, it is the dream. And just personally, I have stories with Dan where like, you know, I lost my stage, lost my voice on stage mid show and he, and was literally responsive, we're not talking, would bring the band down so that I could be heard, like without us even talking about it,
Carolyn Saxon (48:04.566)
He's amazing! Yes!
Kira Troilo (48:10.342)
what was going on with me and adjust. So, yeah. Yes.
Carlee (48:10.87)
Yeah.
Carolyn Saxon (48:11.702)
Yeah, and he and he would do that you know, it's like and because he wants to serve the piece and he wants the performer to be as comfortable and Doing the best job they can and working with people like that is priceless Yeah, yeah Mm-hmm Yep Yeah, how I'm Kira
Carlee (48:15.107)
Yeah.
Carlee (48:26.26)
Yeah, he cared so much and he makes you feel so special, so seen, so heard. It's the whole team, Rachel, Dan, Kira, you, Abby.
Kira Troilo (48:27.884)
Priceless, but we, yeah. Yep.
Carolyn Saxon (48:40.206)
Abby, everybody. It was just, yeah, it was just like, when you put together a wonderful team that we did and that we were so lucky to have around us, it's like, it's only going to be great. You know?
Carlee (48:53.782)
Yeah.
Kira Troilo (48:54.984)
And I think that answers my final question for both of you, which is, what does inclusion look like in theater? I think we got a taste of it. Mm, say it again.
Carlee (49:01.844)
Equitable opportunities.
Carolyn Saxon (49:06.322)
It looks, yeah, it looks like me, I'm gonna walk into the room and I don't even have to know exactly what everybody is and what everybody does. And I definitely don't need to know who they sleep with. So it's just like, I don't wanna know. I wanna be surprised. I want you to, I want it to be revealed to me and I wanna learn more. And I wanna say that I worked with these people and I worked with...
This person, he was a this, she said that, she came from here, she does this, this is how she studied, this is how he studied, this is how they study. This is what their process was like and this is what I learned from them. I want it to be a buffet and I wanna be able to sample everything on the buffet and that's what I want the people around me to be.
Kira Troilo (49:54.386)
Mmm, I love that.
Carlee (49:55.196)
I think also, yeah, I do too, Carolyn. I love buffets, period. But I do really love that analogy. But who doesn't? But you know, I think also adding to that, a big piece of it is meeting each other where we're at. Right? And I think that that's a big piece about inclusion, is meeting the other person where they're at and really making sure that the space,
Kira Troilo (50:02.728)
Mmm. Yes, who doesn't? Come on.
Carolyn Saxon (50:02.742)
I enjoy a buffet as well, so thank you. I know, right?
Carolyn Saxon (50:14.171)
Mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (50:19.137)
Hmm.
Carlee (50:23.596)
feel safe for everyone. And that it's a, and what I mean by a safe space is a, is space that allows the opportunity to make mistakes without fear of being judged or ridiculed. Because like we were saying earlier on this podcast, like mistakes happen and that's how we grow and we learn. If we never make mistakes, how do we progress as people? And I think when looking at inclusion in the sense of
Kira Troilo (50:25.77)
Mm-hmm.
Carolyn Saxon (50:25.803)
Absolutely.
Carlee (50:52.)
you know, trans inclusion, racial inclusion, disability inclusion, you know, really meeting people where they're at and honoring that, making sure that the performers' needs are met just as much as the team's needs are met. And in that way, getting to work with each other and collaborate. And in that, you know, that's what putting together a piece is, right? It's that collaboration, working with each other.
Carolyn Saxon (51:04.135)
Mm-hmm.
Carlee (51:21.048)
The team has things that the performers don't have, like in terms of skill sets, the performers may have skill sets that the team doesn't have. And in that way, they get to work together and really harness each other's strengths. And I think that's a big part of inclusion as well, is really allowing the opportunity for people, especially marginalized identities, to allow their stories to be heard, their stories to be told, their voices to be heard, but also...
the opportunity to exist. You know, and I, yeah.
Kira Troilo (51:54.383)
Mmm.
Carolyn Saxon (51:55.87)
And I want, I would, and I would hope that that, that it would be reflecting our audience that way too. So the people who come are, are the people that we are. And it's just so that everybody can see themselves up there and everyone can experience themselves and feel heard, you know.
Carlee (52:02.356)
Yes.
Kira Troilo (52:10.257)
Mm.
Carlee (52:13.38)
Can I share really, really quick, like, it's like one minute. I can even make it 45 seconds. So, thank you. Speaking of space, Kira, thank you for giving us this space. Like, I just wanna say before, you know, thank you so much. And so I recently did a production of Stepping Out at the Footlight Club this past September. And it was such a great experience, really, really wonderful show.
Kira Troilo (52:17.232)
Please. It doesn't have to be quick. I got as long as you need.
Carolyn Saxon (52:28.494)
Absolutely. Thank you so much.
Carlee (52:42.956)
and a young trans actress who is in high school came inside and found me on Instagram, messaged me and told me that seeing me on stage gave her hope for her own future and that she is still discovering what it means to be a trans actress and that when she saw me doing my thing, I think she was like, when she saw me up on stage, I gave her hope.
Carolyn Saxon (52:57.167)
Mm-hmm.
Carlee (53:12.576)
and it gave her motivation and encouraged her. Oh my God. I was like, oh, let me just care and support you and cheer you on and love you and hoist you up. I think that that's another thing about inclusion too, is that how do we uplift, oh my God, yes. That's exactly it. How do we uplift these voices that have been told for so long that they don't matter?
Kira Troilo (53:12.585)
Yeah.
Carolyn Saxon (53:12.814)
That sort of thing means the world. It means the world.
Kira Troilo (53:19.734)
That's it.
Carolyn Saxon (53:21.85)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Kira Troilo (53:22.996)
That's everything.
Carolyn Saxon (53:28.718)
That's the uplift.
Kira Troilo (53:33.215)
The name of our concert, Uplift, yes.
Carolyn Saxon (53:33.346)
That is.
Carlee (53:41.848)
how do we do that? And not only how do we do that, how do we learn from that? And how do we use it to inform our decision-making process for the arts moving forward? You know, like going to the Regal Open Call and seeing people of all gender identities, of all shapes, all sizes, all racial identities, all, like I said, gender identities, ages. Oh my God, it was beautiful.
Kira Troilo (53:47.68)
Mm-hmm.
Carolyn Saxon (53:53.347)
Mm-hmm.
Kira Troilo (54:07.365)
Ages.
Carlee (54:12.204)
because it was a reflection of the world around us. And that is what I feel like art is. It's a reflection of what we are living in, the world we are living in, the political climate, the socioeconomic, the cultural environment. It's all of these various socio-political factors that are important to the work that we're doing. And I think inclusion is kind of like that glue that could hold it all together.
Kira Troilo (54:16.468)
Right.
Kira Troilo (54:41.204)
Yes, preach. I could talk to you both for another hour. I just love you both. I am so, yeah, just so grateful for your vulnerability and sharing your stories. I wanna also just give the opportunity if you're like this.
Carolyn Saxon (54:41.91)
Absolutely.
Carlee (54:47.628)
No, this was awesome.
Carolyn Saxon (54:47.736)
I'm going to go.
Kira Troilo (55:03.532)
high school student and you're like I need to find Carlee or I need to find Carolyn. What are you up to next? Where can folks find you?
Carolyn Saxon (55:07.198)
Mm-hmm.
Carolyn Saxon (55:13.126)
So, but my next two performances, I'll be working on at Lyric Stage Company of Boston and their production of Josie Chacarone.
Carlee (55:42.452)
Oh my god, Carolyn!
Carolyn Saxon (55:42.674)
And then I will be working with Kira's husband again in a reduction of, I believe he's still in it, Dives and Dolls at Greater Boston Stage. And then I'm going to, then I don't have anything and it'll be all right. I'll probably like.
Carlee (56:05.194)
Oh my god!
Carolyn Saxon (56:11.854)
clean my house after that. Yes, which, you know, sometimes gets neglected as we work, you know. Mm-hmm. Dang, I'm looking forward to them.
Kira Troilo (56:15.148)
That was so important.
Kira Troilo (56:19.176)
Yes! Yeah, oh that's so great Carolyn I can't wait to see you!
Carlee (56:23.937)
Oh my god.
Kira Troilo (56:25.46)
Yes. And what about you Carlee? I know you're in school currently, right? So you're working hard toward that second masters.
Carlee (56:29.88)
Mm-hmm, yep.
I'm working hard towards that degree. And also Carolyn, I'm so excited for you. I can't wait to see those shows. But yeah, so you will find me hitting the books. No, I'm just kidding. No, I'm not kidding. I'll be teaching kindergarten and first graders during the day, doing my schoolwork in the evenings. But.
Carolyn Saxon (56:40.962)
Oh, thank you.
Kira Troilo (56:44.928)
That's it. Yeah.
Carolyn Saxon (56:45.442)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'll be at the library, you know. I... Yeah.
Carolyn Saxon (56:54.451)
Yes you will.
Carlee (57:00.624)
you know, hopefully I get a chance to perform this summer. It's, you know, I think that I really had to make a decision when I went back to school and when I did a chorus line, I was in school, I was working full-time and I was also going to school and like also juggling the show. And it was a lot and I burnt out and I really felt it. And so now I'm trying to honor my self-care a little bit more and I take dance classes every Saturday
Carolyn Saxon (57:09.002)
Mm-hmm.
Carlee (57:30.508)
the studio, a center for adults. It's in Brookline and I love it so much. I do the musical theater class every Saturday with Sarah Putterman. So I still perform. Brookline, Massachusetts, right on Boylston Street. And so hopefully I'll be able to perform this summer in more of a formal way, but I'm doing what brings me joy. I'm performing, I'm helping others.
Carlee (58:00.372)
I'm happy where I am right now and I don't honor that enough. You know? But you can always find me on Instagram and you know, I'm always posting what I'm up to. But yeah, just focusing a little bit on school and then in the summer, you know, we'll see what happens. But I'm always around and I am always here to support and cheer you on, whatever that looks like. So please, yeah.
Carolyn Saxon (58:10.811)
Okay.
Carlee (58:29.864)
Absolutely, feel free to reach out in any way. Yeah.
Kira Troilo (58:30.06)
Thank you. Right, right back at you. I'm always here to cheer you both on. And yeah, hoping to see you on stage, Carlee, this summer as well. Yes. All right.
Carolyn Saxon (58:38.164)
Oh, thank you.
Carlee (58:38.273)
Oh, thank you.
Carolyn Saxon (58:42.606)
Thank you so much, Kira. Okay, okay.
Kira Troilo (59:00.148)
Thank you, love you both.
Carlee (59:00.512)
Thank you, Kira. Love you both.
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