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Mental health and the arts find themselves in many conversations—but not much is being done about the matter. Which is quite a shame. Because when you think about it, we look to artists in times of struggle. Art is such a powerful medium for change, and yet arts education is being minimized in schools, funding is being cut, and creatives aren’t being handled with… care. The arts and entertainment industry is ripe for change—and I know just who to task with this undertaking.
It fills me with great joy to introduce you to two incredible powerhouses who are, in fact, doing this work alongside me! Please meet Zena Collins and Dr. Charmain Jackman. In this roundtable discussion, you’ll hear more about how we connected with each other, the inclusion work we’ve each been doing, and how we’ve been ideating on ways we can work together to create even bigger change for the stage!
In this episode, we cover:
How Zena and Dr. Charmain found their way into the arts
Why traditional DEI approaches simply don’t work for creative spaces
How Kira had these serendipitous meetings with Zena and Dr. Charmain
What does mental health look like in the arts
What work is being done with emotional intelligence in the arts
How the work Kira, Zena, & Dr. Charmain is incredibly synergistic
What language and definitions can be used for DEI work
How you know DEI work is… working
What the Index is at Accordant Advisors and how it’s used in the arts
How to know where interventions are needed within an organization
Who benefits from inclusion work
What does care have to do with DEI and the arts
What it feels like to do the work of equity, diversity, and inclusion
How we can develop spaces to protect our well-being
What it can look like to cultivate inclusive spaces for creatives
How we can create capacity for inclusivity and care at home and at work
Why it’s important for not only creatives but also leaders to have these skills
An important moment from Zena’s cohort of the Inclusive Stages Certification Program
How Zena, Dr. Charmain, & Kira are bringing their skills together in an innovative way
What is your reaction to hearing what we discussed in this roundtable? Reach out to any or all of us on social media and share your thoughts!
More About Zena Collins
Zena is an advisor at Accordant Advisors specializing in business development and culture change architect working with leaders to build high-performing inclusive teams through the development of emotional intelligence hard ability skills.
More About Dr. Charmain Jackman
Dr. Jackman, an award-winning psychologist, author, Tedx speaker, leadership coach and CEO/founder of InnoPsych, is a champion for inclusive mental health and psychologically safe workplaces. She leverages her experiences with burnout and racial stress to elevate conversations about healthy self-care practices and to inspire others to take daily actions to prioritize their mental health through joy and mindfulness. She has received several awards for her impactful work including City of Boston’s 2021 Black History Month’s Innovator of the Year and has been featured on prominent media outlets including New York Times, NPR, PBS, Oprah Daily, Essence, and the Boston Globe.
Links & Mentioned Resources
Connect with Zena Collins:
Connect with Dr. Charmain:
Connect with Kira:
Thanks for joining me on this episode of Inclusive Stages! If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review on Apple or Spotify to help me reach even more theater makers, theater artists, and theater lovers who want to make our industry a better place for everyone.
Thanks to our music composer, Zachary McConnell, and our producer, Leah Bryant.
More about the Inclusive Stages Podcast
Welcome to 'Inclusive Stages' -- the go-to weekly podcast for theater makers, theater artists, and theater lovers who want to make our industry a better place for everyone. We'll chat with actors, directors, designers, scholars, and more about the current landscape of the theater scene and get their thoughts on how we can do better.
Host Kira Troilo will also give you a sneak peek into live EDI coaching sessions and offer actionable tips for creating more equitable, inclusive, and empathetic theater spaces that support and value the diversity of artists and audiences. Join the conversation, and let's collectively shape the future of human-first theater, one stage at a time.
This post may contain affiliate links, so I may earn a small commission when you make a purchase through links on my site at no additional cost to you.
The unedited podcast transcript for this episode of the Inclusive Stages podcast follows
Kira Troilo (00:01.788)
Hello, Zena.
Zena Collins (00:04.062)
Hello, Kira.
Kira Troilo (00:04.924)
Hi, Dr. Charmain.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (00:23.406)
Good morning, well, let me do that. Hello there, how are you?
Kira Troilo (00:27.1)
Good, good. It's so good to see you both. I'm so excited about this conversation. Everyone is in for a treat to hear how the universe, we keep saying, the universe or some higher power has brought us together. And yeah, I just, I'm so excited. I want to hear, I want our audience to hear more about you before I talk about us.
So I'm gonna jump right in and ask our first question. I'll start with you, Zena, if you're ready. I'd love to know what your theater origin story is, if you have one.
Zena Collins (01:02.878)
Okay, so we won't go back to the school play, but my most recent theatre experience was or is being on the board of Theatre 503 in the UK and executive producing a play called Juve by Yasmin Joseph, which...
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (01:06.253)
Hehehehe
Zena Collins (01:25.918)
a play about carnival and two black women's experience navigating carnival in terms of the culture and the gender dynamics that kind of manifest in that space. And so being able to...
be in a position where I was able to support the team from an artistic business, but also cultural perspective just opened my eyes to the power of having a role, which you don't typically have an executive producer role in theatre, but we really named that just to sort of elevate the idea that it was critical to have sort of cultural intelligence and make sure that the person who had...
resonated with the context of the play, was empowered to support the team in a way that made everybody feel safe and included.
Kira Troilo (02:21.276)
That's wonderful. Always up for the high school plays though. That's frequently someone's gateway, it was mine. Dr. Charmain, what about you? What's your theater origin story?
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (02:36.584)
So interesting because mine is not really connected to theater at all. And I'm trained as a psychologist and it was something I've always wanted to do.
I have this opportunity to work at an arts high school in Boston and that brought me into the arts in a way that I had never imagined my career going. And so I would say we had, it's a visual and performing arts high school. And so we had all the arts disciplines, but I would say theater was my favorite. And it was probably the first one where I actually got to combine my skills as a psychologist, integrating with arts and helping
helping to create theater. So that is a high school origin story, I guess. Just not my high school.
Kira Troilo (03:26.396)
There you go! Well that's amazing. Yeah, I recently did, a few years back, did a show with someone from that high school and yeah, I mean they just raved about their experiences. So yeah, it seems like theater there was very special.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (03:30.311)
Ehh!
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (03:41.99)
very special and yeah, I love watching the plays and just seeing the backstories of the students, just helping them through their own emotional and social journeys and then watching them perform. It was just like, man, like knowing kind of what they've gone through to get to that moment. It was, you know, it was heartwarming for me to just see that and to be a part of that. And so I think about my work being able to help artists perform at their best is something that really
resonates and just makes me feel proud and to be part of the arts.
Kira Troilo (04:17.883)
I love that, I think we all have that in common. Great, so I would love, because the both of you are of course, or I should say the three of us are tied together by our desire and passion for inclusion. So I would love to also hear your origin story about what got you to where you're working right now. Zena, I'd love to hear about your work with the court and advisors, but also.
What brought you there? And yeah, what was your journey like?
Zena Collins (04:50.686)
So I started, the first thing I studied at university was media and so I was fascinated from an early age around how people were represented in life generally and then in particular in the media. And so my passion initially was to become a producer and produce stories that told...
stories from a black perspective and told stories that would resonate with my culture experience that I wasn't seeing. And then, you know, how life is.
once you put something into the universe, you attract more of it. Not in a structured way, it just kind of, you just happen to be in this right place at the right time to experience the things that you're drawn to. And so I ended up cutting a long story short, I ended up working in the corporate world and ended up running an affinity network and recognized that there was a need for...
a safe space where people felt understood and included and for the organization to really understand the value of that outside of it just being the right thing to do but also having a broader benefit for developing business and making people happy and improving well -being at work which as we know has a number of other benefits when we do that. So while I was there,
I had my own challenges in terms of navigating the things I was finding out about how other people were feeling in that space and then my own experiences of trying to figure out where I fit in to that space and I decided I needed to develop more emotional intelligence. I'd read about it and I thought it would be useful for me to develop more to navigate these spaces and make sure they didn't have as much of an impact as they were having on my work.
Zena Collins (06:50.142)
was finding it challenging to emotionally regulate in that space. So I found a gentleman called Dr. David Caruso, who was one of the scientists, researchers, I should say, who worked with the scientists that developed the emotional intelligence concept. And so started to research more about that. And he came to London, where I was at the time, and I trained as an emotional intelligence practitioner and facilitator.
And from there, just became more and more interested in this idea about how do you make spaces safer? How do you make people feel included? And so later on, when I ended up moving to the States, Dr. David Crusoe introduced me to accordant advisors. And there they were working on how do you embed emotional intelligence in behavioral change and culture change to...
create a rigorous scientific -based approach to creating models where organisations can sustain the gains they make from some of the activities and interventions that they've designed for the organisation. So it's been an exploratory journey and we've landed on something I think is really special and really excited to talk a bit more about this on the call because it really connects to...
Kira Troilo (08:04.95)
Okay.
Zena Collins (08:17.726)
of how we got together.
Kira Troilo (08:19.158)
Yeah, absolutely. That's great. And also just, yeah, when you delve into something and you think it's one thing and then you discover the need and you follow it. Yep. That's it. I love that. And I met, we'll get into it, but you know, I met you right around the time I met Dr. Charmain, which was amazing because we're all doing such different work, but similar work. So.
Zena Collins (08:28.446)
This is it. It's like a thread.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (08:32.065)
Mm -hmm.
Kira Troilo (08:47.126)
yeah, I'd love to hear from you, Dr. Charmain, about what brought you to InnoPsych and your journey there.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (08:55.298)
Absolutely. And so I, as I mentioned, I was working at an arts high school in Boston and was getting to a point where I needed to make a change in my career. I'd gone through a couple of leadership programs and even though it was my dream job when I was 15, I realized I hadn't really re -upped my dream job. So I went through a couple of leadership programs and really figured out it was time to transition and...
Kira Troilo (09:16.244)
Hmm.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (09:24.161)
I really wanted to think about entrepreneurship and working for myself. And so I've done a lot of DEI work, so I thought I would add that on to what I was doing and end up going through a personal challenge in my marriage. And...
landed on this idea of starting a therapist of color directory because of the struggles we experienced finding therapists and being a therapist, you know, and experiencing such challenge finding a therapist as I, I got to do something about this. So that's how I founded InnoPsych. But in finding InnoPsych that meant I was going to leave the high school, which was really hard. And so I thought that was the end of arts for me once I started my business.
And probably a year, maybe even less than a year in, I got a call from the American Repertory Theater saying they're doing this production of 1776 and they really want to make sure because some of the themes of the play, the production, they wanted to make sure that they were doing it in a way that didn't re -traumatize the cast, the cast crew, and the audience.
And so they're like, would you be interested in partnering with us to do this? I was like, well, yeah. There was like being able to kind of blend my work, DI work and diversity equity inclusion for those who might not be familiar with the term and arts. Again, I had never kind of envisioned this career path for myself. And so it has just opened up new doors, being able to leverage my 17 plus years working with artists.
Kira Troilo (10:53.332)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (11:07.568)
arts leaders and my love for serving communities of color. So it's been an exciting journey.
In addition to that work, we have a therapist of color directory, and we do a lot of focus around workplace well -being. So it all kind of just came together again, sometimes not. I didn't have it intentionally planned this out, but just fascinated in the way of being able to leverage my expertise, and we will continue to do this impactful work that I set up to do with InnoPsych.
Kira Troilo (11:24.213)
Mm -hmm.
Kira Troilo (11:40.629)
Yeah, that's wonderful. And it's just been on my mind since I started my company, Art & Soul, that we need mental health services in the arts. And it's been so exciting to see people actually, rather than me saying, you need this, people reaching out and saying, actually, yeah, we're going to be proactive and seek it out. And yeah, I'm really excited to see what it could look like if it were.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (12:02.716)
Absolutely.
Kira Troilo (12:07.445)
more of a standard than a special case. So yeah, I think that that kind of brings us to the point of meeting. I think any listeners of the podcast, if you don't know my origin story, you can go back to episode one and you can hear about how I got here. But yeah, I mean, I think I'll bring it to Xena because we, we ended up meeting through,
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (12:10.812)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Kira Troilo (12:35.444)
just like a mutual connection. A client of mine had worked with this person and I think she put you in touch with me and we met. So do you wanna just chat a little bit about what that was like when we first just kind of met and talked about our jobs?
Zena Collins (12:54.59)
Yeah, it was a light bulb moment, right? It was a kindred moment. It was a moment where you felt that, you're not in this alone. There are a number of people who are working on various different components of this. And if we bring this together, we could create some type of magic. And so Stephanie Sandberg, who's the owner,
Kira Troilo (12:56.179)
Yeah, -huh.
Zena Collins (13:23.454)
lead advisor at Accordant was like, yeah, we definitely got to meet this lady. And so we hopped on a call once we heard about what you did. And in that conversation, there were just so many connecting dots. So at Accordant, our focus has been around bringing rigor and analysis and emotional intelligence to help to build environments of inclusion and belonging. And...
these researchers who worked on what we call the six dimensions of inclusion, Dr. David Crusoe and Mella Toro. Over the last three years, we had been working with mainly orchestral organizations to identify, you know, how do you describe, what language can you use, what are the dimensions and components of inclusion? And so we really worked...
started to go down this journey of what is it? What is it? What is the secret source? So safety, respect, connection, acknowledgement, support and empowerment came up as those key themes and there's a lot of research they did around that and I can talk a bit more about that bit later. But then when we met you, we was like, Kira's doing the how, so how do you bring this alive in the theatre space? And so when you told us about inclusion stages, it was that moment where...
Kira Troilo (14:33.17)
Yes.
Zena Collins (14:45.662)
If we come together, collaboration is always better than working in silos. We thought there was something that we could really bring, not just to actually the theatre world, but to the creative spaces in general. So...
Kira Troilo (14:57.682)
Yeah.
Yeah, and I felt the same way. It was like a huge light bulb universe is saying, hey, you're not alone here because this work is, you know, all three of us are black women. This work is very lonely and very exhausting at times. And to have, I think, from my point of view, go into these spaces with a clear goal of making them safer, of making them more connected and all of these things.
but I didn't yet have the language to explain how what I was doing was different. So still, even to this day, encountering people who, you know, there'll be a conflict going on and I'm trying to, you know, maybe it's between an actor and a director who, obviously there's a power dynamic there and maybe there's a race dynamic there. If the actor is a black actor, a person of color, white director. And they're telling me that mediating that conflict is not EDI work.
or not DEI work. And I'm saying, you know, no, this is inclusion. This is what we need. So just, yeah, meeting you and Stephanie and hearing, wow, they have the definition of inclusion. They have metrics. They have a way to measure it. And I could just like hear all of the, you know, the choir singing of my clients who keep asking me for the numbers and, you know, how do we know it's working and what is it?
So yeah, I don't know if you want to speak a little bit more about the index, but it was just, yeah, it blew my mind.
Zena Collins (16:35.518)
So we have, and I just want to speak to that piece around people not thinking that inclusion is the answer, because it's how we define inclusion. So if we just take it down to a human level and we think that some of the biggest causes of disease are like hopelessness and loneliness, and it's actually loneliness awareness week in some places this week.
Those dimensions can explain a lot of the different emotions, perceptions and behaviours that create a sense of hopelessness and loneliness. And in particular, if you're from a group that feels marginalised, that's going to be magnified.
And so having a language to not just make it about the visible dimensions, but make it more about actually these emotions that are connected to the things that people can do in terms of their behaviors to make people feel safe, respected, connected, acknowledged, supported and empowered kind of brings it to life, makes it tangible.
So the index is really about going to different sectors within the arts space, first of all, and being able to benchmark organizations. So we started with the League of American Orchestras, and we've surveyed about 3 ,000 people in 60 organizations who have completed a survey. And in that survey, there are questions that ask them, individuals about their perception,
Kira Troilo (18:00.145)
Hmm.
Zena Collins (18:14.672)
So how do they perceive their experience in the space? How do they feel about being part of a particular space or organization? And what behaviors do they observe people engaging in and how frequent are those behaviors? And so based on that, you can start to think about some of the outcomes and what dimensions are...
Kira Troilo (18:30.353)
Hmm.
Zena Collins (18:41.118)
Where are the behaviours in relation to those dimensions helping to realise the vision and the values and the goals of the organisation? And where are they creating barriers?
Kira Troilo (18:50.107)
Mm -hmm.
Zena Collins (18:55.742)
And then which particular areas of the organization are we seeing that there are leading practices and where can we see there is interventions and support that's needed in those spaces? So it provides us with ability in the future to say, actually, this is a leading practice organization and these are some of the tangible things that they've done in order to improve those six dimensions. And then we can start talking about, well, now this space is safe.
Kira Troilo (19:14.514)
Mm.
Zena Collins (19:25.662)
you have actually a fighting chance to make it diverse. Because in, particularly in the orchestral world, it takes a very long time to develop somebody to the level that they'll play at some of these leading orchestras. So for some periods of time, there's going to be only one of. But if that, you're right, but if that environment isn't safe for that person to stay there, they...
Kira Troilo (19:43.347)
Mm -hmm, the only.
Zena Collins (19:50.91)
won't stay. And so you have a system where you're having to continually make a call out because there's no mentorship, there's no role modelling, there's no visible demonstration that an organisation is committed to diversity.
Kira Troilo (20:05.331)
Mm -hmm. Yes, and just thinking about the possibilities of that tool in the theater world. I know so many actors who've been on this season already. We know we all, I say we, you know, I retired for now, but we all know the theaters that feel good to be in versus the theaters that don't. And sometimes you don't have the agency, you know, you need the job and you just need to work somewhere. But the idea that we could measure.
you know, that we could actually measure, okay, which organizations are feeling safe based on these key dimensions and just putting them next to each other. And then, you know, again, working together as a community to grow and learn from each other. And what is this place doing that's making people feel better than this place? Yeah, it's just so, so exciting. Yeah, Charmain, I'm, I think you're muted.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (21:04.84)
And I would say too, I think sometimes you think about inclusion only benefits people with diverse...
backgrounds, but it actually benefits everybody because there's sometimes we have aspects of our identity that we don't necessarily feel safe sharing even though we might look like everybody else in the room. And so what provides a wonderful opportunity for everybody to get their needs met and to feel comfortable saying what they need to perform at their optimal, you know, their optimal, their best. So.
Kira Troilo (21:15.378)
Mm.
Kira Troilo (21:31.218)
That's right.
Kira Troilo (21:35.762)
Right, I don't see why that's contentious in any way. It benefits everybody.
Zena Collins (21:40.542)
I think that if we can get to a place where we recognize that everybody is diverse, then we can break open this conversation and say actually we have a respect for the need for this profession in particular areas, depending on where the organization or that particular location is on the journey of understanding DEI. But...
The goal has to be the fact that we are creating a human -centred approach where people feel included no matter who they are and what they look like.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (22:21.958)
Absolutely. Yes!
Kira Troilo (22:23.154)
Yes. Yes, and that is the magic of these conversations that got started. Charmain, yeah, I just want to speak a bit about how we met. And again, it was very close to when I met Zena, but we happened to meet through a cohort that I was a part of, that you were a speaker at. And yeah, I'll let you start just, you know, what was it when we started talking theater?
What was it that excited you?
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (22:52.867)
Yeah, and I think we had, we met at the dinner or there was a gathering, it's a pre -event, and you were sharing what you were doing, I was like, wait, what?
Kira Troilo (22:57.041)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (23:04.803)
There's other people doing this work? Because I was thinking about, I want to expand this other production, and I just couldn't wrap my head around how I was going to do this. But I knew it was an important piece. And I think the piece that I come with is that well -being piece, that providing a trauma -informed lens to the work of production companies and thinking about how are they taking care of not only the audience. I think this came out of an initiative that was like, let's think about how we're
making sure the audience feels safe and it quickly turned into like how to make sure that the cast and crew are feeling safe in in producing this content and stepping into these roles that might bring up a lot of trauma sometimes racial trauma sometimes other aspects of their identity and so I'm like my god this is this is great like I want to do more of this but how how do I do more of this and then me mad I'm like
Kira Troilo (23:58.672)
Yeah.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (24:03.743)
OMG, like this is it. Somebody else is doing it, like, because somebody else is doing this. my goodness. And then when you talk about Zana, I was like, what? It was just like, it was just, it was just like, wow. And then to think about us all meeting in this time, you know, this, I've been doing this probably about two years now. But to think about just finding.
Kira Troilo (24:08.656)
This is it.
Kira Troilo (24:16.016)
Hahaha!
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (24:33.342)
these other unicorns, I'm like, we have a family now, we're a tribe.
Kira Troilo (24:36.816)
That's right, and we're all, it's the same for me, I think I'm coming on my two year anniversary of quitting my job and devoting my career to this. And it did just for me came out of a, wait a minute, I can't run around the country by myself doing this. And that's how inclusive stages began because I just thought, you know, this is...
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (24:47.326)
Yeah.
Kira Troilo (25:00.337)
This needs to be more of a standard, not just me running in to save the day or Zena running in to save the day or Dr. Charmain running in to save the day. And the idea that we all have different skills to bring to this problem that we see is so exciting. And I feel like we should also talk about, you know, here we are, three black women saying, you know, like the quote I'm using air quotes here, traditional DEI approaches are not working in art spaces.
So I wonder, you know, I of course have thoughts about why we need to reshape our thinking around this. But I wonder if either of you, something sparks that you want to share.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (25:41.916)
Yeah, I mean, I think, God. Good.
Zena Collins (25:42.366)
Welcome.
Zena Collins (25:46.014)
And what comes to mind as you're talking, I was just thinking the word care.
was coming to mind and this whole idea of, so I have a lot of creative friends as well who have been in these spaces and heard their stories and seen their burnout. And also I love the arts, I get so much from it. The experiences I get, I know are at the cost of what the artist and the rest of the collaborative team bring to it. And this idea that there isn't a resource or that's not baked in to the budget or that's not considered, it's an afterthought.
that hurts my spirit because part of what they do for the world as we saw during the pandemic, we were reliant on being entertained. We were reliant on the creative expressions of the creative industries. And so coming from a sort of corporate DEI,
model, I just recognise that just didn't fit. And it was more about really understanding the artist, coming with a view based on understanding the artist's way, understanding how these concepts need to be integrated into everything that they do. So I guess...
care is really the theme and when I met both of you that just resonated in terms of you understood the problem but ultimately you cared and you had your own personal stories and experiences that had a level of empathy that just brought alive the proposition in a way that that was dynamic and and that I felt.
Zena Collins (27:33.15)
just could be really meaningful and transformational based on what I've seen happening in the industry and then just the stories you told just resonated with that.
Kira Troilo (27:41.327)
Yeah, same. And yeah, I'll let Dr. Charmain go, but I just I'll share that even as recently as yesterday, I just listened to your TED talk, which I'll let you share a bit about. But just the burnout piece and, you know, being someone who cares for other people so deeply that it can really take a toll. So, yeah.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (28:08.504)
Yeah.
Kira Troilo (28:09.743)
I'd love to hear more from you about that.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (28:12.566)
Yeah, I think that I love the word care and I think it's come up in the three of us how we talk about this work and there's so much synergy I think as we've started to put our heads together so much synergy in the words and language that we use and so again it's just been it.
I don't know what the word is, but it's just been affirming, I think is the word, to be in space with you and start to talk about what could be and having our language just aligned so easily. So just wanted to name that. Yeah, I think that, you know, my role working in an arts high school, it's what I was doing, you know, for over 17 years was supporting the well -being of our artists, of our young people.
Kira Troilo (29:00.847)
Thank you.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (29:01.159)
artist. And so naturally that was a model, right? And I never really imagined, I mean, I thought about what that would like working for other institutions, but I never imagined like what that path would be. And I think, you know, I see it in my artists, but I also saw it in myself as someone who is a healer who takes care of others. And
Kira Troilo (29:16.559)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (29:31.22)
While I had some practices, I didn't realize the depth of how much I was taking on from other people's experiences. And I never use the word impact, but I'm like, I think that's what I am. I take on so much. And I do as a psychologist, I do have ways of not letting it, or so I thought, not letting it integrate into my being and my soul. But I think stepping away,
Kira Troilo (29:38.607)
Mmm.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (30:01.396)
permanently from the arts work at the high school level allowed me to actually reflect on the whole and what I had experienced. I think working with young people in a city that's stretched and has been excluded and under -resourced.
Kira Troilo (30:09.391)
Hmm.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (30:19.729)
There were a lot of crises, there were a lot of emotional crises of young people, whether it's through their mental health, housing, food insecurity, there were all these things that sometimes I had solutions for, sometimes I didn't have solutions for. And I didn't realize that it was eating away at me inside.
Kira Troilo (30:36.463)
Mm.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (30:37.105)
And so stepping away allowed me to really kind of reflect. I actually did some intentional programs, which I just did because I was like, that sounds fun. Like I'm an entrepreneur now. I got my own time. I can do all these things. But I didn't realize how healing it would be for me. And so as I support people along this journey and transition, and I'm also saying, take time in that moment of that transition to actually reflect, but also to detox.
Kira Troilo (30:48.655)
I'm sorry.
Kira Troilo (31:06.511)
Mmm.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (31:06.864)
because there's so much that you take on and from year to year you don't necessarily realize. Like when you move you realize like how much crap did I accumulate, right? You don't realize that you just keep putting things in and when you're forced to then like move or something intentional makes you kind of reflect on all the stuff you've accumulated. It was actually that for me. And so.
Kira Troilo (31:19.503)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (31:32.688)
I have all these big goals as I transition into my entrepreneurship. And so doing a TED Talk was one of them that I had for a few years and I made a 10 before I didn't quite get it there. But as I was telling, thinking about my story with my coach, I'd know I wanted to talk about racial stress.
and wanted to talk about the impact on our wellbeing. And so my first draft was really about what people needed to do to make sure that they were prioritizing themselves. And the feedback from my coaches was like, well, where is you in that story? I'm like, the therapist. I don't do me. I don't do me. But they're like, no, this format is about you, is about what you've learned. And so...
Kira Troilo (32:03.247)
Mm -hmm.
Kira Troilo (32:10.671)
Hahaha!
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (32:20.335)
it actually was an invitation to actually reflect on how this work has impacted me. And so that's a story I shared and it was actually healing. It was hard, but it was healing to be that vulnerable because as a therapist, that's not how we do it.
Kira Troilo (32:28.143)
Yeah.
Kira Troilo (32:41.135)
Yeah.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (32:42.414)
But yeah, so I think that journey, and it is an ongoing journey for me. I use the word journey a lot, but it is a journey because it's not something that's solved. It's something that I actually have to actively have to work towards, intentionally have to cultivate spaces for my wellbeing in all the work that I do because I love what I do. And doing this work is passionate. And so sometimes I think, I used to think like, because I love what I do, I don't have to worry about stress.
Kira Troilo (32:47.855)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (33:12.367)
but it is in those moments where you love what you do, where you don't have a shutoff clock, where you just keep going. And so I have to remember that even though I love it, I still need to protect my time and protect my space for well -being.
Kira Troilo (33:27.503)
Right, yep, and I resonate with that so deeply, because I find a lot of times it's do as I say, not as I do, and my therapist I work with refers, I identify very firmly as an empath, and that also helps me understand myself better and how I can help others better. And my therapist refers to what I need to do often is take out the trash, in quotes. So it is, it just builds and builds and builds, and then you're like, wait, how did I?
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (33:40.941)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (33:46.349)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (33:51.117)
Mmm.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (33:55.181)
Mm -hmm.
Kira Troilo (33:57.039)
How am I holding all of this stuff? It's just overflowing. So yeah, those moments of just like, take out the trash. Yeah, and connecting with other people who are helpers like you both and feel that so deeply is, yeah, was also healing for me. Go ahead, Sina, yeah.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (34:00.493)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (34:04.877)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Zena Collins (34:16.614)
Yeah, and just as you were speaking, Dr. Charmain, it just made me think of this idea of cultivating inclusive spaces and that came across in your TED talk. And like, it's one thing as we talked about to talk about the what, but what does it look like in practice? And for me, you bring in your whole self and like your coach said, like, where are you in it? And you were brave enough and vulnerable enough to say,
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (34:21.772)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (34:28.844)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (34:35.02)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Kira Troilo (34:40.239)
Mm.
Zena Collins (34:45.374)
I'm going to make this place a safe space and in doing that you brought alive all of those other components for the watcher who may not have felt the ability to have their voice heard and now has a little bit more courage because of that so I just want to recognise you and acknowledge you on that.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (34:46.988)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (34:52.524)
Mm -hmm, mm -hmm. Yeah.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (34:59.436)
Yeah.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (35:03.66)
Thank you. Thank you. It's so funny too because a lot of my friends have said, I didn't know you went through this stuff. And I was like, yeah, cause.
Kira Troilo (35:07.727)
Yes.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (35:17.545)
I just do, you know what I'm saying? I think part of that's women, black women, like yeah, we keep it moving, right? Like I don't have time to dwell in that. I was having babies. So like, where am I gonna like sit down and have this conversation? So it was actually also I opening that how much I also hold and not share, not kind of share the load. And I think that's part of who I am too. Like I'll figure out how to deal with it, you know, so.
Kira Troilo (35:23.375)
Yeah.
Kira Troilo (35:34.351)
Mm.
Zena Collins (35:42.334)
And imagine the fact that people at work are people at home. And so take a moment to think about how do those six dimensions show up in my home life? And then I'm taking that also into the workspace as well. And so...
Kira Troilo (35:48.527)
Hmm.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (35:55.624)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (36:00.584)
Absolutely, yeah.
Kira Troilo (36:00.751)
That's right.
Zena Collins (36:04.542)
Just this idea of being able to, as a community, cultivate inclusive spaces. I don't believe there is another way to do it. In the 25 years plus that I've been working, the ways I've seen it work organically in terms of changing culture is that everybody's committed to a shared vision and everybody has an understanding of what the values look like. And I think that's no different from home as well.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (36:32.84)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Kira Troilo (36:33.359)
Hmm.
Zena Collins (36:33.566)
And sometimes it can be practiced better at work because there's a structure to do it. So I think this whole idea of integrating therapy and having your expertise in trauma, if we can bring that, because we spend so much time at work, if we can bring that into the workplace and give people organically and intuitively through programs like Inclusion Stages these skills.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (36:38.504)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (36:51.784)
Mm -hmm.
Zena Collins (37:03.134)
I mean, not to be too Pollyanna, but it could change the world. You know, it could change the world, you know.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (37:04.263)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I think, yeah.
Kira Troilo (37:06.541)
Yeah?
I think I can.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (37:11.303)
And I think that we make these kind of boundaries between work at home as though they're like, well, I'm dealing with this at home and then, I'm at work now, it's not affecting me. But it does, like we carry it, it goes back and forth. So these arbitrary lines that we talk about home, work -life balance and all this stuff, it's all mushed together. So, yeah.
Kira Troilo (37:34.701)
Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Zena Collins (37:39.166)
and think about that as a creative in terms of the emotional labor of performance.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (37:43.815)
Yeah, yeah.
Zena Collins (37:45.95)
coming in and out of character, coming in and out of these spaces with having to get people to do what they need to do for the art. So you have to take on a persona that might not necessarily be your natural way of being. So this is, as we talked about earlier, why do traditional DEI approaches not work? Because all of these things have to be taken into consideration and there has to be an empathetic understanding of what it takes to be an artist and what it takes to work.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (37:47.527)
It rolls, yep.
Kira Troilo (37:55.245)
Mm -hmm.
Zena Collins (38:15.904)
in these spaces to be able to apply these principles in this space and you need each of these components in terms of the how, the what and the why and what sits underneath that in terms of how people's perceptions are informed and how the trauma manifests in the emotions that they're displaying and the behaviours. So I'm just so excited about us coming together.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (38:25.255)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Kira Troilo (38:27.246)
Right?
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (38:41.349)
Yeah.
Kira Troilo (38:42.317)
That's right. Yes, me too.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (38:44.069)
Yeah, yeah, and that, and that well -being, I don't think I've made the point, but that well -being has to be part of that work because when you are doing DEI work, people do experience trauma connected to their identities. And so it is part of that healing for them, but also for the institutional organization that they're part of. People are not disconnected from their experiences. So ruptures happen, right? DEI work,
Kira Troilo (39:11.533)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (39:13.509)
usually involves some type of rupture that has happened or about to happen, right? It might be slight, it might be big. People may talk about it. I often find in my work, people often are silent about the harm that they experience because they don't feel safe bringing that to the leaders or to the institutional, to the organization. And so that well -being, that healing has to be part of that DI solution as well.
Kira Troilo (39:16.941)
Yeah.
Kira Troilo (39:42.924)
That's right. And the leaders as well, not just the artists, the leaders need those skills to be able to effectively and productively handle those conflicts. So this is just like we said earlier, everyone. But yeah, two things that resonated that I wanted to share before we kind of, you know, maybe cliffhanger what we're working on. But recently, you know, speaking of the difference between being an actor working and an actor at home.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (39:46.341)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (39:51.909)
Mm -hmm, mm -hmm, mm -hmm.
Kira Troilo (40:11.691)
a show that Dr. Charmain and I just worked on together through some mental health challenges for folks of color, specifically black folks. One of those actors just got a therapist for themselves, personally. And this was like a huge step that they shared with me. And I was so proud and just thinking that the theater, that this show was a gateway for them to take care of themselves.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (40:36.577)
Mm -hmm.
Kira Troilo (40:40.907)
And how is that going to affect that person's career now going forward in the sustainability? So that's just real time. That happened last week. And then with Zena, one of those moments is we were fortunate enough to have you as part of our first cohort session where we're trying to start teaching people these inclusive stages practices. And you brought an email to us, just kind of an email that could.
that has gone out a million times between, you know, there's creatives who disagree and send out angry emails on a blast or, you know, maybe it's not angry. I won't give too much away because we had a really lively discussion about it. But just talking about, you know, with the cohort, people who read the email and immediately sympathize with the director or immediately sympathize with the writer or, you know, wherever they go, the stories they tell themselves.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (41:20.417)
Mmm.
Kira Troilo (41:38.314)
And we spent, I want to say we spent near 30, 45 minutes just talking about this email and how we could respond and what feelings were at play. And the light bulb moment was just like, how many of these have we seen? And we still haven't realized that we're missing the skills to effectively handle these conflicts that happen everywhere in the arts. I think, you know, you had 18 people whose eyes were just like, wow, you know, I,
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (41:54.366)
Mm -hmm.
Kira Troilo (42:07.498)
learned so much in just one session, just changing our thinking. So I, yeah, to all of that to say, I am so excited at the scale, the possibility of this work and right, it's exciting, it's invigorating, it's, I think it can change the world. So, you know, this, as we're nearing the end of this conversation for the public,
Yeah, I just, you know, we are chatting about how we can bring our skills together and, you know, take steps to make this future not just a dream, but something very actionable. So yeah, I'll let either of you share, if there's anything you'd like to about what you're excited about going forward in this journey. Cause I agree, Dr. Charmain, it is an ongoing journey that I just continue to follow the thread of as well.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (43:02.619)
Yeah, I think that there are so many opportunities and I think the arts and entertainment industry is ripe for change. And I think our brain power, our brain power is set up to make those changes happen.
Kira Troilo (43:25.418)
Guys, let's go.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (43:26.842)
Let's go. But yeah, I think that, I do think that we're seeing, I think in the wake of George Floyd's murder, but I think there just being this, there's a lot of...
I don't know, discontent in the way, not just in theater, the arts, right? Just in every way, the way in which things have happened and excluded certain groups and people have a voice. Now, I think people are developing an agency. And so we're seeing this kind of reverberate in many spaces and particularly the arts about how do we make these spaces inclusive?
but also psychologically safe. And I think, Zena, you're the top set, you know.
artists and creatives, and I think Kira, you've said this in ways as well, like we look to artists in times of struggle, activism, the civil rights, right? There's so many ways in which artists, I think about as an educator, arts education is being minimized in schools, but it's such a powerful medium for change. And so I think there are just ways in which I'm just excited about.
you know, as the work that we're already doing, how that's changing, even the institutions that we've started to work with. There have been significant impacts and the work, what I hear from the leaders, but also the artists is like, this work is meaningful and it's impactful and it's helping them to feel seen. So I'll leave it there and hopefully I answered the question you answered. Yeah.
Kira Troilo (44:51.113)
Mm.
Kira Troilo (45:07.177)
Yes, you did. Perfectly.
Zena Collins (45:11.198)
And I feel I'm doing this work for myself just as much as I'm doing it for everybody else. So they say you teach what you need to learn. And I think a lot of the time we overcomplicate the problem. And the way that we've worked together...
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (45:15.894)
Hmm.
Kira Troilo (45:22.345)
Mmm.
Zena Collins (45:35.422)
have to just say thank you to both of you. Over the short time, just every conversation has been so uplifting and easy. It's just been so fluid based on the fact that we all care and we all are trying to make a difference in a very similar way but in our unique, with our unique skill set and perspective. And so...
Being able to give people the language to just know what they're trying to figure out and helping them to become part of a community of people.
who are committed to developing the skills, whether it's using the model of emotional intelligence we use, or they're able to get access to therapeutic interventions of wellbeing, or whether they want to be trained in facilitating these conversations and have access to programmes that are structured in a way that gives them the tools to be able to do that from themselves or in organisations. I just feel that we're in a moment.
you know, just like there was a Harlem Renaissance moment. I feel there's a renaissance of healing and there's a moment where arts and people who are in the healing practices are coming together because as you said, Dr. Charmain, we need the artists and we all recognize in the world that we're living in, without them, they are the biggest tool, you know, route to being able to give us all the courage.
to get a little bit of that creative spirit inside of us to look at ways to reconcile the stuff that's going on for each of us. So we talked about these three P's ideas, which I'm sure is going to come up in future conversations where it doesn't matter what your vantage point, if you're looking at it from a profit perspective in terms of how can I make sure my organization is more profitable and sustainable in the future? And how can I make my people feel like they belong and want to be here?
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (47:15.059)
Yeah.
Kira Troilo (47:16.115)
Mm.
Zena Collins (47:42.494)
or other places I'm in, there's something we need to do about the culture of these places and spaces.
inclusive stages is a way to really speak to each of those and there's data points that demonstrate that when people aren't feeling included and on any of those six dimensions they're less they're likely to leave the audiences are less likely to be engaged and you're likely to lose money and potentially not be a sustainable profitable organization so
Kira Troilo (48:12.882)
That's right.
Yeah.
So whatever language you speak, because I think we all speak the language of we care about people and we want to sustain people and artists and ourselves. But right, you're speaking to some of the things we've been talking about, like it's profit, it's these places, it's there's so much connected to this one piece that we're going to need that Renaissance, we're going to need people to start paying attention. And funnily enough, you both said it so beautifully, I don't feel like...
Zena Collins (48:17.022)
I'm going to go to bed.
Kira Troilo (48:46.081)
I need to say more, but the final question we usually ask on this podcast is what does inclusion in theater and arts look like to you? And I think that's our cliffhanger because I feel personally, speaking from the eye, when I started to think about what does it look like, I met you too. So as a cliffhanger, I'll say, I think we have the answer. And I think that we'll be able to share more.
soon. I hope, you know, this is we're nearing the end of season one here, but I just couldn't be more excited to, yeah, to just go forward in this future. I'm going to just steal the Renaissance word, Xena, because yeah, this Renaissance that's coming to make the arts world better for everyone.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (49:36.464)
And of course I love words and my play on word was a well -nascence.
Kira Troilo (49:39.373)
Yes!
Kira Troilo (49:43.118)
Wellness tubs. Yes. Put it in the notes.
Zena Collins (49:43.166)
Ooh, I'm flowing into that. I love it. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Ooh, you better get the trademark on that quick, Dr. Charmain. Right, we heard it.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (49:47.568)
I wrote it down here.
I'm not ready.
Kira Troilo (49:55.982)
Yeah, let's go.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (49:59.312)
Set here first, right?
Kira Troilo (50:00.589)
said here first, this is, it started here, that's right. And the, yes! And what we said, I think our first session together was just put like these three black women on a Zoom together and we can change the world in 90 minutes. So I think.
Zena Collins (50:04.862)
That gave me all the feels.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (50:16.076)
Yeah.
Kira Troilo (50:18.605)
That was the beginning and yeah, we will just keep on going. So thank you both so much for your time. Is there anything else that I should ask you or that you'd like to share before we wrap today?
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (50:33.516)
No, I just, you know, I thank you for convening us. And, you know, again, I think that, you know, we've been orbiting this together. And again, like the cliffhanger, I'm just excited to see what's about to pop off. That's all. I can't wait.
Zena Collins (50:47.134)
Yeah, yeah, a lot of gratitude and for all the things that we want to be better in ourselves, being part of circles that are doing this work just provides just abundant feelings of joy.
Kira Troilo (50:48.747)
Yes.
Dr. Charmain Jackman | InnoPsych (51:03.788)
Yes.
Kira Troilo (51:05.675)
Yes, yes, joy and the wellness on so I'm here for all of it. Yes. Well, thank you so much. Our conversation continues but for everyone else, thank you so much for joining us and you'll be hearing more from these women for sure. Thank you so much.