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How does a DEI consultant navigate the challenging landscape of diversity and inclusion work when it becomes politically charged? What happens when the very programs designed to create more inclusive workplaces come under fire?
In this special episode of Inclusive Stages, the tables are turned as I step into the guest seat. My husband Jared interviews me about the current state of DEI consulting – in theater, but also in general. Through an intimate conversation, we uncover both the personal and professional challenges of championing inclusive work practices in an increasingly polarized environment.
Here's what we cover:
Why traditional DEI training often creates resistance and how my unique approach builds bridges instead of barriers
The unexpected issues that arose when theaters rushed to demonstrate diversity in 2020, and what meaningful inclusion actually requires
How social media conversations about diversity and inclusion can undermine the very goals of DEI work
The critical difference between visible representation and authentic organizational change in theater spaces
The surprising insights I gained from conversations with people who hold opposing political views about DEI initiatives
What it means to build psychological safety and resilience in diverse theater environments
As the landscape of DEI work continues to evolve, the need for authentic, inclusive conversations in theater spaces has never been more critical. Effective diversity and inclusion work isn't about creating division, but building bridges that allow everyone to contribute their best work.
What experiences have you had with DEI initiatives in your theater organization, and how do you think we can create more meaningful dialogue across differences? To support more accessible DEI training in theater, consider contributing to the Inclusive Stages scholarship fund at inclusivestages.com/donate, and follow Kira's work on social media for ongoing conversations about creating truly inclusive creative spaces.
More About Jared Troilo
Jared is a Boston-based actor, singer, dancer, pianist, and music director who's had the great fortune of performing all over the world. The Boston Globe has cited him as one of the best and most versatile actors in Boston. He's appeared on the stages of Huntington, Speakeasy Stage Company, The Lyric Stage, Wheelock Family Theater, Moonbox Productions, Palace Theater, Shadowland Stages, on and on and on and on—so many places. He's also had the honor of performing at Symphony Hall in Boston under the direction of Keith Lockhart. He's also an Ernie Award winner for his performance in She Loves Me at Greater Boston Stage Company. He is a four-time Elliot Norton Award nominee for his work in the last five years, A Gentleman's Guide to Love and Murder, Oklahoma, and The Band's Visit. You can see him on TV and in film—most notably in the film About Fate on Amazon. He's a graduate of the Boston Conservatory and an AEA member.
Links & Mentioned Resources
Related Episodes
Connect with Jared
Connect with Kira
Thanks for joining me on this episode of Inclusive Stages! If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review on Apple or Spotify to help me reach even more theater makers, theater artists, and theater lovers who want to make our industry a better place for everyone.
Thanks to our music composer, Zachary McConnell, and our producer, Leah Bryant.
More about the Inclusive Stages Podcast
Welcome to 'Inclusive Stages' -- the go-to weekly podcast for theater makers, theater artists, and theater lovers who want to make our industry a better place for everyone. We'll chat with actors, directors, designers, scholars, and more about the current landscape of the theater scene and get their thoughts on how we can do better.
Host Kira Troilo will also give you a sneak peek into live EDI coaching sessions and offer actionable tips for creating more equitable, inclusive, and empathetic theater spaces that support and value the diversity of artists and audiences. Join the conversation, and let's collectively shape the future of human-first theater, one stage at a time.
This post may contain affiliate links, so I may earn a small commission when you make a purchase through links on my site at no additional cost to you.
The unedited podcast transcript for this episode of the Inclusive Stages podcast follows:
[Kira]
Are you a theater maker, theater artist, or theater lover who wants to make the theater industry better for all of us? You're in the right place. Hey there, I'm Kira Troilo, a theater artist, creative professional, and mom who quit her job and devoted her career to equity, diversity, and inclusion for the arts.
Through decades of work in theater spaces, I couldn't help but recognize a gaping hole in our industry, the shocking lack of care and support available for creatives. Since 2020, I've become obsessed with creating actual human resources for the humans who create theater in community. Enter the Inclusive Stages Podcast, a shame-free zone where we put my framework for inclusive theater spaces to practice.
Here, we'll build bridges through curiosity and conversation, and we'll never shy away from real talk. Join me as I break down relevant, hot-button topics of our day and chat with fascinating industry professionals about their experiences in the theater world. Plus, I'll even show you how I help actors navigate identity differences to tell brave and compelling stories, all while maintaining psychological safety.
Ready to start building care-forward creative spaces where humans and art can both thrive? It all happens one stage at a time. Places, everyone.
This is the Inclusive Stages Podcast. Hello, theater friends, and welcome to a special bonus episode—surprise!—of the Inclusive Stages Podcast. I am not supposed to be here.
We're supposed to be kicking off Season 3 in the spring. However, I felt compelled to be here. We are currently sitting in February of 2025, if you're listening to this in the future sometime.
And there's a lot going on with DEI, to say the least. There's the pretty serious attack going on. People are being fired from positions in the federal government.
Arts centers are being attacked as well. The president has claimed himself the chair of the Kennedy Center. There's a lot going on.
And it's not just DEI, it's DEI and the arts. And that is the work I do. So I thought it was crucial for me to come and use my own platform to say something.
People have been asking me in my personal life, how are you? How are you doing with all of this? The current political climate, how is business?
How are you feeling about the future of DEI? And I thought I would just kind of condense all of my thoughts and feelings into a podcast conversation. But rather than this be a solo, I thought it would be more fun and help me, honestly, a bit to have the conversation than to hand over the host position to my husband, actor, singer, creator, and husband, Jared Troilo, who's been here before, so that he could interview me about what's going on, how I'm doing, how I'm feeling, what I think about all of this.
I hope it's helpful. I really, truly, sincerely mean this, that I feel optimistic and hopeful. And I feel like we have a really great opportunity to get our message out about this work and about it being for everyone and about it not being political and not being divisive.
I feel like there's such an opportunity at this time, even though it's exhausting to watch the news and to be attacked. Stay with me, friends. I hope that you find some comfort in this conversation.
I hope that you are inspired. And I hope you're with me. So I will go ahead and pass it off to your host for the day.
[Jared]
All right. Well, welcome to a very special episode of the Inclusive Stages podcast. It's special for two reasons.
First of all, I'm the host, which is kind of strange. I never thought I'd be hosting a diversity, equity, and inclusion podcast, but here I am. And you're the guest this afternoon.
And second, you've always said, Kiara, that DEI or EDI is not a political issue. It's like HR. We don't talk about it in terms of a political discourse, but DEI has kind of been thrown into the political arena by President Trump and the Trump administration.
They've made DEI public enemy number one. They've eliminated a lot of federal DEI programs, and a lot of corporations have actually followed suit. So I was just kind of wondering, how are you doing?
How are you feeling? How is this time for you? It's been kind of strange.
Yep.
[Kira]
Hey, honey. How am I doing? So in the bigger sense of how I'm doing, you know, 2024, I spent the entire year mostly pregnant.
[Jared]
I'm surprised.
[Kira]
Yeah. And then I had a beautiful little boy in September.
[Jared]
Yes, we did.
[Kira]
So, you know, just in like that fourth trimester for the rest of the year. And then it's like I came back from maternity leave and I saw it coming, but I came back to a landscape where the President of the United States is attacking my job literally on all fronts, both DEI and the arts, also nonprofits, which is, you know, I work with a lot of nonprofit theaters. So yeah, I'm tired.
I think that's the first thing I'd say is I'm tired. You know, literally, I'm not sleeping much because we have a newborn, but also there's just so much work to do. And I think I've re-realized this over and over is that as far as I think we've gotten with this work, we're always like five steps behind that in actuality.
So, you know, I keep saying I'm fired up. Like I'm ready to go. I'm ready to talk about this today.
I'm ready to continue to do the work, but I'm tired. I think that's the honest answer.
[Jared]
Yeah. So actually, I mean, people don't know this, but we talk about DEI all the time between us. Sometimes just like while we're making dinner, we'll talk about it.
And mainly because it impacts our life pretty profoundly. We both, we're in a mixed family. Obviously we have two biracial boys.
I have a large Jewish family and, you know, an Italian family and you have black relatives and white relatives and they all kind of come together beautifully, but- Or like the picture of diversity. Yeah. Yeah.
But these issues do come up and we do talk about them a lot. And I think what people would be surprised is that we actually have found ourselves in agreement sometimes with people that criticize DEI at certain points. And I kind of want to go back to just the beginning of DEI as we know it.
So if you go back to the summer of 2020, there's a horrible murder of George Floyd and the protests and the riots that followed that. And around that time, I felt like DEI programs were kind of popping up all over the place. And I remember there was, correct me if I'm wrong, but it, we see you white American theater, which was an open letter that was penned by artists of color, basically calling us out and saying, we've been screaming for you to do more and you haven't listened.
So we're going to go public with this until you actually listen to us.
[Kira]
That's right.
[Jared]
Which was effective because all these DEI programs started popping up all over the place. And I remember experiencing a lot of these programs, like as an employee, as a teacher, as an actor. And to be honest, I agreed with the intention of them, but I didn't get anything positive out of them.
I remember leaving feeling angry and gross and embarrassed and disconnected and never wanting to do whatever it had. And I'll give you just one example. I remember for this employer that I had, that I was required to do this DEI session.
And for the DEI session, the person that was in charge said, if you're white, be careful what you say, because it could be interpreted as X, Y, and Z. So as a white person, I immediately said, okay, I'm just not going to talk because I'm not a person who wants to offend anybody.
[Kira]
Because you're terrified.
[Jared]
Because I'm terrified. Then the second thing that happened is they split all the white people and all the people of color into two separate Zoom rooms. And we each talked about diversity and racism within our rooms.
And that was the whole session. We never got to talk together. And I remember thinking like, is this fixing anything?
So I understand people criticizing that. So I guess my question is, sorry, that was a long-winded way of getting to my question, is how are you different? And are those critics correct in some of their criticisms?
And which ones do you think those are?
[Kira]
Yeah.
[Jared]
Yeah.
[Kira]
You know, I have to give props to the people who did this work before 2020. I want to start there. Because my dad, for example, is someone who did this work in the 90s.
Then he was working for a fire department and he was the minority affairs officer. That's what it used to be called. There are many different names that the work has been called.
But I just want to first say that it's been happening since before 2020. 2020, of course, it exploded. And something that came to my mind today that I actually told you over breakfast was that this cry, like you said, we see white American theater.
And the outrage that was rightfully sparked in 2020 demanded a more immediate, visible answer. And so people went for the obvious, immediate route, which was theater specifically, let's show the diversity on stage. Let's get a bunch of people of color.
Let's hire someone of color to come in and do the diversity work. Let's hire a chief diversity officer who's Black and they're going to come in and they're going to fix all of our diversity problems. What didn't happen was the focus on what is actually going on inside the company, apart from what's on stage, who's on the staff?
Who are the other freelancers who are behind the table, off camera? What about the boards? What about how it feels to be in those rooms?
What about the systems inside that need to change in order to make room for different people who weren't really being centered before 2020, right? So there's that. I saw all of this coming from a mile away.
In 2022, I started being interested in doing this work. And I've talked about that on the podcast before, so I won't spend time now with my origin story. We'll link it in the show notes.
But I was here in the house when you came home from that workshop and you told me how it felt. I talked to friends I had who were telling me that they were interested in doing this work, but I was hearing this sense of like, I'm feeling icky. I'm feeling gross.
I'm feeling like this work isn't bringing us together. So long answer to the long question. I'll tell the story of my first experience facilitating a group with this work.
And you were kind of a part of it. I facilitated a conversation for a group. It was 20, I'd say 70 plus white people.
They were involved in a situation that happened where a black actor was wronged. I think that's as specific as I can be. And I was supposed to come in and help these people understand not only what happened, but why it wasn't okay and how they could move forward.
So I walked into this conversation and these people, very nice, but their shoulders were like all the way up to their ears. They were so uncomfortable. They were so scared.
Some of them wouldn't even look me in the eye. And I'm a, you know, Hey, this is a podcast. You can't see me, but like I'm a smiley person, you know, like very friendly.
And I was shocked at what I perceived that they thought I was.
[Jared]
Well, it probably wasn't the first time they've experienced a DEI quote unquote experience. I'm sure it was a negative experience for them.
[Kira]
Exactly. Exactly. So in that moment, you know, again, I'd started being interested in doing this work.
I'd been training a bit, but I really just went off of my own instinct to connect to this group. I told them that they didn't have to be afraid of me. I told them that they could say what they wanted to say without fear of being canceled or saying the wrong thing.
I said, as long as we could all stay curious and compassionate that we could have a conversation and they could ask some questions. We talked for about an hour and I saw it in real time. There were questions I wouldn't repeat here because these people would get eviscerated just for asking questions.
I think that, you know, some of us who are very open-minded and educated in all of this about inclusion and diversity and cultural issues would see a question like that, or hear a question like that and shut them down. But I didn't shut them down. I said, yes.
And tell me more. And let's talk about that and let's unpack that together. All their shoulders just came down throughout that whole session.
I could feel them calming down. And after the session, I'd say 10 of the 20 kept me afterwards to talk. They had questions for me.
One of them, their son was dating an Asian woman and they wanted to be more respectful at dinner. Things like that. But I gave my email.
I said, I love to chat. I'm an open book. So that showed me that there was a way in with people who felt like you're explaining.
And that's why I started my company. And in a nutshell, that's how I'm different. I believe that this work is for everyone.
And I feel like it just takes a willingness to be curious about other people's perspectives and going in and not saying that you're an expert and that these people should do this. These people should do this. I'm curious about what's going on here.
And I want to help facilitate a way for us to connect in a genuine, authentic way so that all voices can be heard and then we can move forward.
[Jared]
Yeah. And I can speak from experience as an actor, who's had you in the room as a EDI professional is that when you're in the room, I've always felt that, Oh, she's my EDI person. Not, I don't mean just mine.
I mean, but she's also there for me. She's not just there for the marginalized groups, but she sees me as an individual because my diversity, it might not be on the surface, but there's a million things that make me very different from most people, as you know. And I felt represented in that room.
Like, Oh, okay. If I feel at any point that I need some support or some help, or if I have a question, I have somewhere to go with that. I'm not the villain here.
I'm part of the group. And I think that's the huge improvement that you've made on earlier efforts of DEI is actual inclusion. We're including everybody in this room.
If we're going to be leaders in inclusion, the theater community, then everyone has to have a seat at the table. And I think for me, that's always been such a relief and it's such a welcome change. So do you think critics of DEI, they just, I just don't think they see that.
I think they think of DEI and they think people that are out to push away white people and lift up minorities and it's kind of discrimination, but in reverse. And I disagree, obviously. I want to know what your thoughts are, but I can see why they would think that because there have been, I mean, I remember you said you had an early job interview with somebody, right?
Before you decided to go into business for yourself, you were trying to get a job as an EDI consultant elsewhere, and you had a possible employer say something that kind of took you off guard. What happened exactly?
[Kira]
Yes. I'm happy to get into that. I think it's important, but I want to start by saying that I've been saying for years that the way people perceive DEI work is a major factor in why now president Trump again, got elected and got reelected.
And people think that I'm overstating that they're like, well, it doesn't have much to do with it. But I have seen what happens when you tell people that they're dumb or wrong, or if you tell them they're privileged and they don't understand what the words white privilege mean. I've seen what happens and you could see like, okay, great.
There's movement forward and it looks like we're progressing. But there's a lot of angry people who are afraid to talk loudly.
[Jared]
Or just scared people.
[Kira]
Scared, angry.
[Jared]
Misunderstood. Yeah.
[Kira]
And they're sitting there and they're seething in a liberal bubble. We're not seeing those disenfranchised and angry, scared people who are over here going, this is ridiculous. And that's why we were all shocked.
We were shocked in 2016 when he was elected. I was shocked in 2020 when it was so close. Shock doesn't even describe how I felt this time.
You know, with the like huge victory he had. I just want to say that I've been saying that this is a big factor.
[Jared]
Yeah. And to his credit, this term, he is doing what he said he was going to do.
[Kira]
Yeah.
[Jared]
He did say he was going to eliminate DEI.
[Kira]
Yeah. That's why I say it wasn't a surprise.
[Jared]
Right. And the majority of Americans voted for that. And I think that gets to my question is, because the way you describe it, it sounds like something that we could all use.
And I just think there's a misunderstanding there.
[Kira]
Yeah. Yep. There is.
[Jared]
And I think that moment between you and that possible employer, I think, speaks to that.
[Kira]
Yeah. So I'm always hesitant to give more fire to people who criticize DEI. But I also want those people to know that I see them.
So I'm going to tell this story I don't think I've ever told publicly before. When I was trying to get my foot in the door with diversity and inclusion work before I realized that I wanted to start my own company, I was meeting with a lot of different people who do the work. And I was just kind of trying to see what's it like to do this work in the arts?
Do you freelance? Are you a company who hires you? All of that.
So I made a bunch of connections and I started just talking to folks who did it. Like many people I know who listen to this podcast struggle with imposter syndrome, just like the best of them. So I thought, well, these people must know better than I do.
I'm new to this work, blah, blah, blah. I met these people who I could have potentially maybe worked with. We had a really great conversation.
The work was mostly based in anti-racism, which great. I knew that my focus, I wanted to be more kind of like culture. Once different races were in a room together, I wanted to be the one to kind of like talk about the hard issues and then bring us together in a place of trust.
But at the end of the call, one of the people, I'll never forget it. She said, you know, the best part about this job is that I get to tell white people what to do. And I felt so uncomfortable in that moment.
I could feel like both a pit drop in my stomach. And also I just could see people who vote for Trump and think all these negative things about this work. And it just felt like, well, they're right.
[Jared]
Yeah, there you go.
[Kira]
I was in that moment, but I was, I was on the end so they could say the quiet part out loud, of course. And I knew immediately that I had to start my own company. You know, there are many reasons why I started my own company, but I think that moment was, oh, I'm different.
I don't want to tell anyone what to do. I want to be a bridge. Like I want to bring people together and it's going to be hard.
And yes, there are people of all colors and identities who can be frustrating, right? And everyone has the right to be angry, I think. But going into this work with that mindset is just reaffirming what the worst of what they think we are.
[Jared]
Yeah, exactly. I also wanted to ask you, there's a common criticism of DEI that says that we are disregarding merit. The analogy they always use is that, you know, if I'm a passenger on a plane, I don't care what color the person is that's flying the plane.
I want the best pilot in that cockpit flying the plane, which I understand. We just flew the other day with our two kids and worst timing ever. And thankfully, we're great.
But like, I remember thinking the same thing. I just want the best possible pilot flying that plane. So I guess my question is, can we live in a meritocracy with DEI?
Or are they just not compatible? Like, is it just is one or the other? Do we have to pick one?
Or is there a way that we can get them to work together?
[Kira]
Yeah, I mean, I think going back to kind of what I said to an earlier question, I think people want answers and solutions now. Okay, we're doing DEI, we want to get, you know, we'll use the plane analogy, like we want to get black pilots in there, because they're underrepresented, right? And again, I'm in theater.
So you know, we're not saving lives, or holding people's lives in our hands. So I do different work. However, people want the answer right now.
So they want to rush to hire those underrepresented people. Right. And I get that.
It's the same reason why, you know, in 2020, everyone wanted to hire their chief diversity officer, or their CEO or their leader, they wanted to be someone of color, or somebody black, right? Again, heart in the right place, understand that. However, we have to look backwards, we have to go way back to go forward.
And I'll explain what I mean by that. You know, anyone of any race, when and where are people learning what is for them, our six year old son, like he sees movies and TV shows, and you know, all this on media that he consumes, right? There's a conversation I had with Julianne Cromit.
So I'll link that in the show notes too. But just about the importance of seeing yourself represented in storytelling, because that tells you that you can be something, you know, let's go back to like my parents generation, you never saw a black scientist on TV or in the movies. So why would a black person think that being a scientist is for them?
Why would a black person think that being an airplane pilot is for them? You've got to go first back to that. Because if people don't think it's for them, then they're not going to have the drive to get the education that they need to read the books they need to read to talk to the people they need to talk to.
And that's apart from access. That's a whole other conversation like, can that person based on where they come from, access an education where they can go get the schooling, etc, etc, etc, right? It's a long path to getting to where we want to go, right?
We can't just say everyone's equal, and the best person wins or gets the job. It's like, okay, maybe for now, with a pipeline, you know, and I keep saying this authentic pipeline, where we can bring a diverse group of people up in every field to train so that everyone has the skills and the drive to be what they can be, right? It's not that, oh, well, white men just happen to be better at this.
No, there's a reason for that.
[Jared]
How does that relate to theater? So that's like saying what you said before about just putting people of color on stage. That was the first step.
I mean, I remember, everyone was doing the color purple. I was like, read looking at the audition listings, like, Oh, okay, I guess, well, there's one production of My Fair Lady I'll go in for. But, you know, there was a time there where that was the focus of just put people of color on stage, which representation doesn't matter.
But it has to go deeper than that, is what you're saying to really fix the problem.
[Kira]
Yeah, absolutely. And yes, so I had one other thought, and it's going to connect to this answer. Merit, like, to think that, you know, there are white folks who got where they are just on their merit is foolish.
You know, like, nepotism is real. People get in because they know someone, right? So if you don't know someone, then your way in, it's just a lot harder.
So I just want to say that same thing with theater. So what happened, right, was a lot of theaters during that 2020 time were like, we're going to do the black show, we're going to do the Latin American show. But they don't necessarily know enough actors to pull, right?
So what ends up happening is I get a bunch of emails and calls saying, Do you know anyone for this part?
[Jared]
Do you want to do it?
[Kira]
Yeah, I retired for now. But like, do you know any of the black actors to fill this role? Do you know any API actors to fill this role?
Right? So it's like people want to do the show, show they're doing the work and then go hunting for these roles, right? Whereas like you said, Jared, like you're sitting at home without a job, because you know, no one's on the roof.
Well, Sreya, some of our colleagues of color were like too busy, you know, like my friends burnt out, right? It's great that there were so many opportunities for them to work, but also too many. Some of these shows couldn't cast- All at the same time.
Right, because they weren't talking to each other, the theaters, and I had so many conflicting feelings around it, because I'm so proud to see like my black friends, my friends of color working hard and often and getting well. And I know that the theaters get to show something that's visual, that makes it look like they're doing the work. And again, this is where I think we get tripped up with EDI and the overemphasis on diversity and racial diversity.
It's like, well, if I see black people on stage, they must be doing the work. And then everything we're talking about the people being disenfranchised and feeling like, well, this work isn't for me. It's just about putting people of color ahead of us.
And that is not the work. So it's like antithetical to the real meaningful work that makes a difference, right? So it's like the theater doesn't have to do like seven black productions to be an anti-racist theater.
It's like, why can't we do the work on the inside? You know, I'm just spitballing here, but like create a mentorship program. To my point about representation, we need more black stage managers.
We need more black artistic directors, artistic directors, managing directors, producers.
[Jared]
Not just black. I mean, all identities need to be represented.
[Kira]
Exactly. And I'm saying that from someone who's in constantly in shows that are about a specific cultural identity and behind the table is all white and me. And I'm just like, this is what the reviewer is going to see.
This is what the audience is going to see. The forward facing. And they're going to think the work is being done.
Meanwhile, I'm back here holding a whole lot. And I try, you know, this is theater. People care.
People are compassionate. You know, like they care about telling stories and human beings for the most part. And they just want to do what's right too.
So like they need the skills to be able to be resilient in these rooms, you know?
[Jared]
Yes. Yes. We need more diversity in all these roles.
But as you just said, it's not about just putting diversity in those roles. It's about doing the outreach. It's about mentorship programs and apprenticeship programs and starting from the bottom and training and cultivating skills.
And that's really where the way that we're going to be able to kind of marry merit and DEI. Am I correct in saying that?
[Kira]
I think so. Yeah. It's a long way off.
Well, I'll say that.
[Jared]
Sure. I mean, it's probably a generational. It's something that we just have to keep moving forward.
[Kira]
It's going to take a long time.
[Jared]
Right.
[Kira]
And another thing I think I've talked about on this podcast, that's tough is social media. Uh, friends get off social media and get in person and have conversations. I have a lot of friends again, who mean well, and I want to also step back and say like, there's Kira, the person, you know, and then there's Kira, the EDI consultant.
So speaking as Kira, the person, I know it's frustrating when we see productions of shows that don't feature any racial diversity. But what I see sometimes is there'll be a picture of a cast, like the face sheets and the headshots, and they may appear all white, or maybe some of the people in it are white passing, you know, but these casts get eviscerated on social media. Cause it's like, where's the diversity?
Kira, the EDI consultant is like, we are making this so easy for people who want to support Donald Trump, for people who are just critics of DEI. Because if all we're caring about loudly in social media outrage is what the cast looks like, then we are not focused on the equity and inclusion in that space. My question is always, is that space equipped to do Ma Rainey's Black Bottom?
Is that space equipped to do, you know, any given production? Is it, is that space equipped to do a production of a production of Oklahoma or a Golden Age musical, right? With the racial diversity that they have and not consider what it means to put like a Black body in one of those roles, for example, or to not have the tools for white people and, you know, trans people and disabled people to get on the same page, to say the hard things and talk about the art and then in a unified way, move forward as artists and collaborators.
We don't want people stepping on eggshells, walking around, dancing around these topics, afraid to say anything because there are a certain identity. We want to gather, right? You've asked me like, what makes me different?
You know, and again, I'm in theater, so this is, we're not solving the world's problems, but I mean, maybe, hey, but I believe we have to get in the room. We have to start to build a foundation of trust as a full group. We cannot separate into silos, you know?
And then we have to rip the bandaid off and we have to say the hard part out loud. We have to talk about the tough stuff, right? Because we're making art.
We all need to buy into the story. We can't be afraid to bring what we're bringing to the table. Once we do that, then that's like when magic happens because that's when we can start to say, okay, I'm feeling a sense of bravery here.
We're talking about this stuff. We're doing a play about racism. Black and white people should be able to talk about it and what it is and how are we going to make this art?
If they want to, how are my experiences going to help me in this process? Or if they don't want to talk about anything personal.
[Jared]
It's inclusion too.
[Kira]
Yeah, they get a language to talk about it in the room. I help people with a language to have these conversations and tools so that we can disagree without saying, well, I'm out, you're racist, or I'm out. We have to build some resilience.
[Jared]
Yeah. So that brings me to my last question is, where do we go from here? That's where we are right now.
Where do we go from here? And I also just want to touch upon the inclusion question again. And you mentioned social media.
I witnessed on social media during the election, there were certain members of the theater community at large that made known their desire to vote for President Trump. And I completely disagree with their decision and the explanations they gave. And I think they're dead wrong.
But they didn't give their explanations in a disrespectful way. They weren't using language that was intentionally hurtful, I'll say, in my opinion. It may have hurtful, but I didn't see the intention behind it.
[Kira]
In the posts?
[Jared]
In the posts, yes. Go to the comments section. And there are prominent members of the theater community, I'm talking casting directors, agents, producers, directors, fellow actors, just eviscerating these people.
Not saying I disagree, you're wrong, but saying, you're never going to work again. So long. Nice knowing you.
Like you're done. That kind of thing. It gave me a really icky feeling.
I was kind of appalled by it. Because, listen, we grew up in a fairly conservative time. We know lots of Trump voters who are lovely people.
I think we do. And I think people cast their votes for different reasons. And I might think they're completely wrong about everything.
But you just have to say, they're wrong, but they're going to say the same thing about me. I'm wrong. We still have to find a way to communicate.
[Kira]
Right. At work, we do.
[Jared]
Especially at work. Yes. And your personal life, it's up to you.
But my question is, can theater be inclusive of these people too? I know you spoke to somebody recently who felt kind of outcasted by the community at large and afraid to voice their own opinion because of that. I know I've walked into rehearsal rooms where politics is talked about openly in a way that you're assuming that we're all in agreement about everything.
And I remember looking around thinking, I'm sure someone in this room doesn't think this way. And this is uninclusive. Is that a word?
[Kira]
Exclusionary.
[Jared]
Exclusionary of them. And I guess my question is, what do we do about that? Is there a way that we can move forward with that?
How do we include everybody in the room? If we're going to be the leaders of inclusion, we have to find a way to include everybody. Yes.
[Kira]
Yeah. It's a great question. And I have a few answers.
And I first want to say that I'm not perfect.
[Jared]
I disagree.
[Kira]
Well, I'm biased. I'm not perfect. And I was angry in 2020.
Very angry. And this is before I knew how I wanted to use my talents in the world to see what I wanted to see. So I was figuring it out along with everyone else.
And I was really angry. And I saw red whenever I saw people voting for Trump. I couldn't understand it.
I just saw, you know, the racism and the sexism and all the things, you know.
[Jared]
And just to be clear, this is 2020 where we're not seeing people in person.
[Kira]
Oh, yeah.
[Jared]
We're just seeing things on social media. Everyone has a political platform that they have to use.
[Kira]
And that's what I mean. That's that's why social media. That's how I came to the conclusion I came to about it is you can get really angry behind a screen and you can forget the connection that we all have as human beings.
Right. So the first to say, yes, I was one of those people who would see someone voting for Trump proudly and I would get angry and think like, well, we are just opposed. We can't talk about anything.
Right. And then as I started to talk to people like I told you that that group of like all white 70 plus that group of 20, some of them conservative, you know, I just started to realize like we can have a conversation to social media currently in the election cycle now. When I see people saying things, you know, like they're voting for Trump or wherever they are politically, they're entitled to that opinion.
And that doesn't mean that they are awful people. I fully disagree with them. And they're a human being, too.
Now, I will say that what happened during the election cycles, I have written about this and people who I've been close to in my life even would post like racist, sexist pictures of Kamala. Sure. That to me was I'm done.
Yeah. You know, that is unacceptable to me. That's a boundary.
[Jared]
Right. If someone's using racist or anti-Semitic or homophobic language intentionally, obviously they can't be right. Yeah.
[Kira]
And that's again, everyone's everyone has their own line in the sand. That's mine. So I was on following people who I saw doing that kind of thing.
Now, I'll say that when people are just posting their political view, we can feel whatever way we want to feel about it. I feel a certain kind of way about it as well. However, telling them they're done, telling them that they'll never work again, people in power telling them like, oh, pack your bags.
That is bullying. That's doing the opposite of what we want to do. That is rejecting conversation, which pulls us further apart, which makes connecting for our country even harder.
It just reinforces the idea that they can't speak their minds, that we will not engage.
[Jared]
Yeah.
[Kira]
And like you said, I agree. I think there are probably more conservative theater and arts people than we know because they're not speaking. Another thing I wanted to, you know, I think I'll talk about this more.
I recently reconnected with an old friend of ours who, you know, her words is an ultra conservative Christian biggest fan of Trump, right? This person commented on a recent blog post that I shared and asked to have a conversation with me. And, you know, I'm trying to lead by example here.
I'm trying to get off of social. I don't engage in these arguments on social media anymore. I always say, even to my clients, I say, invite them to a conversation.
If someone's really outraged, let's talk. Let's not go back and forth on social because no one's changing their mind. And she invited me into a conversation and I accepted and we talked and I was really surprised at just how much we could agree on.
Honestly, there were things she said that I was like, wow, no, you're wrong, which is fine. Yep. And that was expected.
[Jared]
And I'm sure she'd say the same about you.
[Kira]
A hundred percent, a hundred percent. And I was really surprised and I explained my work to her and she said it sounded great. And that gave me a lot of hope.
I'm hoping people can take a little hope away from this bonus episode, but it gave me hope that like an ultra Christian conservative Trump voter can think that my version of EDI work is good. Then what that tells me, obviously she's not representing swaths of people, but what that tells me is that the label of this work and the bad work being done is making a bad name for the work, right? The work itself is for everyone.
It's not political. It is workplace culture. It is psychological safety.
It is people being different and coming together and talking about the hard stuff and feeling like they belong and matter. So we have to get off the screen. I'll just turn blue saying this, but we're going to keep in touch.
I'm actually going to try to have this person on the podcast in season three. So stay tuned. She said she's going to come.
I don't know if she'll be anonymous or not, but like blur her face and like change her voice. Truly. That's what she was saying.
She's afraid. She's such a very big Trump supporter.
[Jared]
Who is it in the arts community? Yes.
[Kira]
This is a person who is a musician artist. I'm feeling like I am called to be a bit braver and lead by example. And even though I'm in the arts and even though I keep saying, you know, like I don't do this work in the deep South, I think we need to start being a little bit braver.
I think we need to build up our resilience and we have to be able to engage in these conversations without burning out or tapping out. You know, obviously we have to check out sometimes for our mental health, but we have to build the muscle to have these conversations and not just shut people down. We have to invite them in.
And until we do that, like I really scared for the direction of not just theater, but this country.
[Jared]
And I think we have to have some humility too, and be able to say we might be wrong. I mean, I know personally that people that wouldn't normally associate themselves with, you know, the liberal progressive arts community. I've witnessed them post anti-Semitic things on Instagram or anti-Islamic things on Instagram this past year.
And I found that whether or not they realize that that's what they were or not is a different conversation. But I think we all have to realize that we all can be wrong. And we all have to just kind of lower ourselves a little bit and try to bring in those that are different.
That's the only way we're going to be able to do this together.
[Kira]
Yes. I think it's part of the same conversation, really. I think, you know, when I go into show processes, we do a guidelines conversation.
Usually we talk about tools we can use in the room when we need to communicate effectively. And one of my favorites, I just used it this week. It was listen to understand, don't listen to respond.
I think so often we're trying to just get our point across. We're waiting for someone to stop talking so we can start talking. We need to listen to people and really, really listen and really try to understand where they're coming from.
Even if we think that what they have to say is wrong. Right. And I'm talking about at work again, I'd like to just throw that out there.
It's like we need our personal lives to be surrounded by our community and our people that you want to be with people who love you and you love them. I'm not saying we have to do this difficult work like all day, every day in our social circles. We'll never do it at work though.
We have to listen to understand. You'll hear things because I hear things. Um, I'll have the intention of, you know, obviously inclusion and someone will say something that will make me realize like I forgotten someone.
I'll give you a quick example. Um, I did a, um, talk with a room about what diversity is, what is equity, what is inclusion, right? And diversity, I had all these words up on a word cloud.
So like pregnancy, race, religion, social, political, all of this, someone came up to me on break and was like, I don't see body up there. And I said, Oh, I thought it was up there. It was not so right.
So I have to say, Oh, okay. Well, this person who was really a fan, I think of the work did not see herself reflected in my word cloud. And, um, of course I adjusted it right away.
Next time it will be in there, but like, you have to listen to what people are saying, right? Cause if I'm losing that person, because she doesn't feel like the work is for her, then I'm not going to put my hackles up and say, well, no, no, I, I want to bring that person in. So how can I include them?
In this case, it was pretty simple.
[Jared]
All right here. Well, if people want to take part in this work or support this work that you're doing your DEI initiatives and, and the way that you approach the work, what can they do? How can they support you?
[Kira]
Yes. People can support in a variety of ways. And I know that times are tough and like I dislike asking for money.
So I want to give some ways that folks can support with their money and folks can support, uh, with their money. If money is a challenge, then I encourage you to do what I've saying this whole time, which is go have some conversations. Try.
I know it's hard, but something I like to think about is if we're part of a group that is not being affected by something, if we want to make a difference, then we can come in and do some of the labor for that hurt group and speak up and speak out and connect for them. Right. You know, Jared is Jewish.
I'm not Jewish, but I can support the Jewish community without feeling like I'm being targeted by antisemitic attacks. Does that make sense? So Jared is not black, right?
He can support me without feeling the heat of racism against black people. So we can go out there and have conversations in our corners of the world and be a little bit braver. You know, I can have a conversation with someone who doesn't understand pronouns and gender identity, right?
Because I'm not harming myself in the process. I'm helping a community who's tired and burnt out. So that's number one, you can do that.
If you want to support the work that I'm doing, the thing that I would like to do in the face of these bands is to expand and to grow, right? That's what I can do is keep going. You know, obviously my work changes and worse as it goes, but like, I've been on the same track since 2022.
I'm not changing what I'm doing because of these bands. So if you enjoy inclusive stages and you like what I'm doing, I'm training new cohorts of folks throughout the year. And a lot of people are interested in learning the skills to be able to navigate rooms like this, and they don't have the means.
So please, if you have the means, we could use the support in offering scholarships to people who want to learn how to do what I do. Okay. So if you go to inclusivestages.com and click donate, it will take you to a link and you can contribute any amount, whether it's 20, 50, a thousand dollars, whatever you have truly, I'm telling you that I have a list of people who have signed up for scholarship opportunities and they want to learn and they want to bring this version of the work across the nation and hopefully the globe, right?
But they need access to do that. So if you have the means you can donate there, you can also support the podcast, the making of the podcast. We're going to be recording season three in the spring.
So there's a Patreon. We'll put that in the show notes as well. You can support us there.
Don't let the fact that, you know, people are taking DEI away from their websites. They're taking these things away because of the current administration, right? Stay the course if you care about this work.
Okay. It doesn't matter about who's in charge. It honestly doesn't even matter what we call the work.
You know, if people don't want to use the word diversity, I'm going to continue to try to educate folks to what this work is actually about and why it's important everywhere. But just keep going. It's important and it's long and we can't just negate all the progress we have made.
There have been missteps, but we need to just keep moving forward. I think that's it. Is there any other way people can support that you can think of?
[Jared]
Follow your social media. Keep listening and keep growing, keep learning.
[Kira]
And if you're looking for a consultant to come in, you know, I'm the CEO and founder of Art and Soul Consulting. So check us out as well if you're looking for someone to come in and help your organization. But yeah, I just really appreciate anyone here for listening, for trusting me if you're, you know, listening on a regular basis.
And I want to thank Jared for hosting so that I could sit in the hot seat. I hope that we can serve as a model of having some of these conversations at home.
[Jared]
Yeah. All right, Kira. Well, thanks for talking with us this afternoon.
Kira will be back as host for season three.
[Kira]
Give me back my podcast.
[Jared]
But thank you. That was great. I hope this helps people.
[Kira]
Me too.
[Jared]
Great.
[Kira]
I love you.
[Jared]
Love you too.
[Kira]
Thank you so much for listening to the Inclusive Stages podcast. If you love the show, please be sure to like and subscribe to our channel. We have so many exciting guests and important topics coming up.
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See you next time.
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